Today, we're going to speak about playing within systems
for change.
and we have
besides myself
and yanis John Bart,
of course here Tegan, Bristow and crispeed.
Tegan joins us from South Africa
where she is a principal researcher and
Senior lecturer at the wits School
of the Arts with a specialization on African art
culture and Technology.
She also acts as an editor-in-chief and
digital editor of the Ellipsis journal for
Creative research.
Chris is located in Scotland. He said it
already. He has a background in art. He's also the director
of Edinburgh Futures Institute and a
chair of design informatics and
I think he will probably say
a little bit more about what he's doing also in
his presentation. And Janice John
is currently in France.
got a background in art and Mathematics and he
we are
all and he's also
with me on the editorial board of a
journal called Technologic Arts, which was founded
by
Someone called Roy escort who
is connecting all the four of us?
And that is basically also the reason for this panel.
I was I was socks asked by Ben sweeping
if I could organize a panel
for this conference that has more for
nuts Focus, but nevertheless kind of connects Art
and Design and systems and Roy
Ascot is quite famous in Britain
for having introduced system thinking cybernetics
thinking into art education.
He's really a Pioneer and
in in participatory and interactive
art and art education notably.
He's won the golden eagle and currently the
professor emeritus at the University of Plymouth. And
he's did how must of technoitic arts
and Shanghai and all of four of us
have gone through his kind of guidance have
been Guided by him for for some
time in our life
in Tegan has gone our PhD you
Swiss Roy. Chris was connected to
the planetary collision at the same time.
and
and Janice is currently teaching for in Shanghai.
So that is our background, really?
and from there we
were discussing what the focus
of this panel could be.
And we came up with this idea of where
we looked at what we are doing
really and how our practices are
connecting.
and how our practices could
Be discussed as a theme and and
also.
Maybe I mean obviously we
had in mind this idea of systems and
how are and and art could
connect to system. So this focus
on the idea of play.
Is what came up
in this in this previous first discussion
that I had with Chris and
we're looking at all our works.
I think I'm not going to read the abstract
again because all the short excerpts
from
our PDF it's it's on the
on the website, but I'm going to jump in
to this.
Into this presentations, so we are going
to do a quick presentation 10 minutes each.
So it's going to be after 45 minutes. We're
going to be have finished the first part.
and then we are going to enter a
discussion and at this
point you're very much invited obviously to
participate in the discussion, but also before that it's
it's you're always welcome to
add questions in the chat and
we will
then already have the opportunity to think
about these questions and
or we could respond.
So we will collect these questions while we
are going that's the idea.
Yeah, so that's why I'm going to do now. I'm just
going to jump into my presentation. I'm listed first
here. So
I'm going to do this.
So playing within systems for change
one point of view when you
point one.
I have a background in both architecture and art
and I have been located in China for now
roughly 10 years and this situation
of Crossing disciplines and
cultures as
quite often made me rethink many
things.
But what I would like to talk about today is
the relationship between art
and ecology.
There's a strong connection between landscape poetry
landscape painting and embodied emotional
experience of nature of landscape
in the Chinese context. That is
not quite so the cut.
It's very different in in the
western idea of
landscape. We don't really have this emotional connection index
sense.
So this was an initiation for me
to rethink some of the images and
Notions that we are.
Encountering at the moment also in
in the context of the ecological crisis.
It's it's quite clear
that
there is
something has happened and especially with
this image of the globe that was for
me something to think about it seems
that
this it seems that this image
of the globe as it has been.
Published again. And again in the context
of technology is somehow something
that is quite detached from
our experience.
And I was quite interested in this notion of of
this experience of
this of this image.
And digging into this a
little bit.
Obviously one can find.
Recent critique by people like donoharaway
announcing in Kenneth always were
also highlight that there is
this this idea the view of the Earth as
a globe is has been misleading.
And this image is
actually quite new. I mean we
did the first
full Globe image
of CSS as a photograph is from 1972.
It was taking on
the Apollo 17
spacecraft flight.
and when we look into history
it's quite apparent that this first when this
image was first published there were
but there were very different Notions of
what we perceive today when
we think about this this image, so
I have here a quote
by Margaret Mead.
published
on at the occasion of the Earth Day
from 1977 only in
the last Squad of my life has come to know what it
means to be custardians of the future of
the earth to know that unless we care unless we
check the rapacious exploitations of
our Earth and protected we and
gendering endangering sorry
and dangering the future of our children and
our children's children.
We did not know this before except in little
pieces people knew that they had to take
care of their own but it was not until we
saw the picture of the Earth from the Moon that we
realized how small and how helpless this planet
is.
Something that we must hold in our arms
and cares.
So this notion is quite.
different from
the critique that we've seen by far
away and insane and so
on.
it seems
that a shift of point of view has taken
place in the meantime.
We look at the Earth from space and from the distancy a
perfect sphere the globe.
The view from space is like the bird eye view
and design and could also speak and for
God's view. It is in any case of you
that is detached from the experience of everyday life.
It assists rationalization, but
also radical simply vocation with
a focus of research shifting to the analysis
of movement. So that would be a critique.
And they're older images that meet
this kind of notion of the globe
as something that is.
looked at from outside and
an object that we can
at free will play with
in a scene that Charlie Chaplin Master
fully conceived for the film The Great Dictator Hinkle
Hunker the ruler of tumania is
shown in his office of Imperial Grandeur
taking a globe of its stand.
Throwing it into the air.
He catches it and tips it into the air again.
As a gymnast us with the ball.
As in rhythmic gymnastics were more complex
figures typically follow simpler ones.
He presents more extravagant moves. Once
he seemingly becomes at ease with
the basic ones.
Chaplain's performance presents the audience with an
ambiguous image of a global that suggests graceful
Beauty and at the same time radical negligence
at the abuse.
As it is planet Earth that figures as a
ball the grace we would associate with
the gymnasts small play.
ballplay flips into the negation of
Grace
as chaplain shows what looks like place not
necessarily play as it incorporates Direction
and purpose towards an external goal
serving the detectors eagle and not the
beauty of the performance.
Gymnast engaging in a performance
is always within a state
of play but the dictators tipping and kicking of
the global into the air appears to
be affected from this out.
But Margaret meets stated something that
we must hold in our arms and careful.
So how did that shift take place?
At this point perhaps we need to be reminded.
that
images always meet other images
and stories
It matters what ideas used to think
other ideas with it seems like a very simple
thing to say. It says don't know her away it especially
matters. What ideas used to think other ideas
with if one of them is not in control
of the other if they reach into and interrupt each
other if the result of using ideas to do
ideas with destabilizers both
in ways to change the name of the game for the
possibility of ongoingness and countable to
the power structures of the encounters and
the entanglements.
The picture of the Blue Marble was sent into the context of
the series of Journey.
And Journeys and first personal narratives
that are highly emotional of astronauts Living
Earth and seeing as Earth from
the space.
So this is the shift.
And I'm going to cut this short there's a history
to this which has been quite nicely described
in the literature.
I'll also from this first whole earth
catalog technology.
The context of the whole earth catalog
was already had this kind of DIY technology,
but then these companies became Global
players and with this.
with this development from the year why
to Global
global corporate players also
the shift the the ideas
of
this image of the globe changed.
I I would like to just quickly. I'm already
over time mentioned that
this is obviously nothing unusual. We
have always images in
the context of other images.
In this case proposal in response to
a competition for the celebrations of the Yugoslav youth
they in 1987 celebrating Tito's
birthday seven years
after his death. That is the image shown
on the slide. The poster was chosen by
generals of the Yugoslav Peoples Army in
high ranking Yugoslav politicians.
It was printed in millions of newspapers. What
was never produced as a poster only shortly after
the competition disposed to became a huge
Scandal by
the posts and fact was a Nazi
poster only the symbols had been exchanged. It's
a wellness story in the
recent history of
Contemporary Art.
And quiet revealing how how these
images exist obviously
within the system and that's works of
art.
exists within systems and artists play
in systems and
I think this notion of play
Is very important?
The gymnasts engaging in a performances always
within the state of play but the dictators tipping
and kicking off the global into the air peace
to be affected from without. I say
the performance records the process of objective education
that actualizes detachment.
The scene does reflect and question not
only the hubris of Germany's Hitler
but also the practices that encompanied.
a compliment need the fascist
rule
and this is one of the images that comes to mind in this
context. There's another
rhythmic gymnastics with or without apparatus was
what what countless girls in
Nazi Germany engaged in as part of their training
for good motherhood and service to the nation.
But there's no male version of listening gymnastics.
And chaplain's performance presenting a dictator's Globe
gymnastics integrates seemingly disparate opposed
and opposing Nations resists objectification.
the characteristic of this principle of integration
is referred to by Gregory by
itself as Grace.
And with this I am at the end of my part and
sorry for.
taking
a bit over time
and I hand over.
I guess to the next person.
on the on our second slide
Tegan would you like to present next?
Sure, let me get started and
share.
and
I have a problem.
and
is it clear?
Yes, we can see you. Thank you. Okay, good.
Thanks. And yeah, I
mean, I think it's quite interesting that we're all coming from very disparate places
or the world and practices and yet so
connected in so many things and so the
work that I'm going to be focusing on is a question
that I've been playing out quite some time actually
since 2016 and it's called the school for vernacular groups
and it really kind of
looks at the practice of beadwork and as a
Kind of knowledge transfer location and really
from the perspective of South Africa
where beadwork and beadwork making
is a very communal practice. So it's a often and
existing with women. It's kind
of over intergenerationally and it's
highly complex and different
kinds of ways and I'll be speaking to that. So I am taking
Bristol and I'm
at the University of Central South
Africa and I work in the digital arts department specifically.
But I also ran a festival for many years called The Faculty African
digital Innovation Festival, which was also
again kind of intersecting with technology and play
and from gays actually
means add power will add electricity actually
and which is a bit funny because we have a major
power crisis in Johannesburg. You don't
have much and but it also is used
in and dance so fun games like
really put the energy in and I think a lot
of people might know that South African music cultures.
It's very dance orientated and I think it's worth well
thinking about the context from which
I was speaking which is very vibrant very performative and
a cultural and Community level and this is
where the work is situated and
of change movements and
so the this work particularly is really comes
out of a teaching a curriculum here
at the University which
Technology acts curriculum, which is dominantly Western
lead. There's very little history
of Technology outside of the kind of Western world and
it was really hard for me when I was teaching here
to kind of speak to young African students about,
you know, their practice in technology
spaces and because it's so dominated by
the west or the
North and the kind of ownership that can
happen there is often through sort
of changing practices or Shifting
the way something works or finding your own system within
it within existing system. And so this
is where the world comes from and I did a
lot of research that really looked she's kind of understanding history
and cultures of technology in relation to
Africa specifically both historic and contemplary
and you know the content we African technology
history is a very defined race history of
colonialism.
I think I mean it's obviously clear to a lot of people that you know
modernity and colonialism are one in the same
thing. So a lot of global salt
and African positions on modernity are Colonial and
not necessarily modern as
one would see that and obviously technology and
industrialization and even now contemporary near
Colonial technology positions are
kind of led by that frame and so
one of the things that I really wanted to do is to unpack
and curriculum was where was where
the technology exist and what was the question
of technology and really kind of led a
lot by and looking at Technical and
mathematical practices and in
cultural practices because that's where it's transferred.
That's where the knowledge existence and existing other space is
due to colonialism. So it was it's quite interesting
to understand how things like the actually hold
within them history of technology and
there's something
That we sort of had to understand when we talk about technology also
talk about knowledge regimes and
understanding how to kind of radicalize knowledge
regimes in terms of how we transfer knowledge
and gain knowledge and
build knowledge and and I was kind of
looking at it through these three knowledge regimes and
this is led by this is machine. There
is a philosophy here at my university
in Johannesburg. So he speaks
about three so he speaks about the expert regime or
the institutionalized knowledge regime which is
a system of written and published knowledge in which
Western scholarship is kind of founded and taught and understood the
vernacular with the Southern and so
there's a Bolton is a post-colonial English learning
studies. It's kind of refer to the people that fall out
of the expert regime or whatever.
Allowed to be part of that extra machine. So there's
a there's a sort of vernacular and it's a Well to knowledge format
which sits outside of that and then there's the
insurrectionary knowledge regime which is very much I think
by the play of the pools and and the
kind of upending of stuff. She's a term
that's that Christmas was talking about earlier when we're talking
where it's actually is very much an African
knowledge location and mostly because it's I
suppose in responsible response to
finding yourself and finding something Beyond and
expert regime and and finding
ways to bring the binocular and expert together
in different ways. And so
for me the the vernacular and
it's very much also social
technology and so the kind of
pre-colonial technique cultures like which is
highly mathematical and very technical in
different ways and almost making
that little bit further and also indigenous systems
of knowledge transfer can also be understood algorithmically
in account information is passed through
our information is built and you know, which kind of stories
which kind of systems hold that knowledge and if it wasn't in
the extent regime and then also the Insurrection
the places where where this work
really sits in Planes.
So I started this
question of vocabulary for vernacular algorithms and
the project was really a interaction with
two people and a man called and Russell
for wedding who's from kzn, which
is possibly going to tell which is the holy land of the people
and also a group of people from a good
team and which is somebody there
and in a country
book most week that use a lot of beadwork and
basketry in an extra cultural practices. And what
we started doing was kind of beginning to unpack
using actually Iranians African
factors modern Computing and it just design other kind of
basis starting to unpack the history of technology
for suppose young
Africans like pre-colonia. What does that
mean? So one of the things that I did was take my students to
the the museum collection,
so we have a huge in our collection and which
Fortune please actually read through the lens of
African art and very specifically anthropologically LED
African art. So it's kind of looked at
from the kind of an external perspective and
it's not really understood what the artworks which
are often very functional are and in terms of how they
were made and the kind of systems involved in making of them
and unpacking of them. They really looked up as objects and
not as systems. So there's really about bringing the students
into the museum allowing them
to look at those objects to the lens of
vernacular algorithms and the binocular mathematical
systems and and the fact
that mathematics frame of run English and it
is really exciting because it did a couple of things for us
it helped to decolonize the
notion that technical knowledge is only Western and
they are the ways and other philosophies of
technology that exists and that we can
bring to to our understand.
of it, and there was also
To understand and this is really just the surface I'd
say they are the really fascinating relationship between technology
and social cultural knowledge
in Africa and how systems and
kind of techno as cultural
systems exist and how they are actually largely egalitarian.
So not material but egalitarian and
then also it brings this knowledge and into
a kind of
Contemporary African Computing and digital practices,
you know, there's the students in the room
or engineering students gain students digital art students
and how would they then bring this this philosophy to what they need
going forward and how they learned about the world and then
again just to build confidence in young African Learners
at the relevance of their cultures within the technosphere is
actually and that this is a
there's an acknowledgment of the kind of intergenerational relationship
between a grandmother and a daughter and what
she's able to transfer as a technical knowledge and not
just a cultural management. So this is really significant to us
and
the
there's some really lovely examples from my first
group and it was
a really love sharing and the first one is
Screen. Yeah, the first one is a the
believer basket, which is the
food basket from Cameron. So you see the shape there and this
is a really really great example of and a
geometric algorithm. And
so those are the forms that they were looking at scaling recursion
complexity numerical systems geometric
algorithms and it's an example really great
example of geometric algorithm because it starts as a square moves
into your circle and then enter the triangle and you
know, just the looking at that from
a mathematical perspective is really actually quite complex and leaving
practice itself and there's shifting
of colors and the amount of counting and kind of
as
So thinking you have to do to kind of construct that and which
is very geometric in in all its forms. In fact, and it's
really really beautiful work and it also reflects lubriculture.
So liver culture has a lot of emphasis on
the shifts that happen to one as you grow in life
and how you change from one way of being to another
way of being not only in age but also in and understanding
the world and who you are so there's
a very strong connection between social cultural aspect
and the technical aspect and the other
pieces quite close to my heart because it's
an area which I grew up it's and then that's develop
Medical Board medicinal corn. So it's basically a
born you can see it in which medicine is kept
by a spiritual healer and there's
often a lot of work kind of technical work
or algorithmic mathematical work that happens
in the healing space as well. And this piece has
a lot of love with style on it
and so it gets again big
Excellence smaller and it also represents Infinity.
So in when the culture Infinity is really significant
part of how they understand the world and philosophize
in the world and their Spirit.
One of the spirit animals is a crocodile and a snake
and a very common dance is
a kind of coming in Age dance for all young
men and women is called the python dance and there's
a beautiful photograph there of that and which
talks to the kind of infinite Loop of
Being Human and
A role that you play in this and so
this is part of a kind of initiation ceremony of growing up as a
woman and in this culture, so they're really
interesting to me and really significant and that link between
the two was really fundamental. So when we started
looking at what we call it the vocabulary for vernacular algorithms,
we decided to focus specifically on and Zulu
need work and to leave
work itself is it's really highly complex very very
mathematical and really recursive and
system orientated in its
making and we started asking a little questions. Like
how can we conflict the mathematical that you geometric
and the experiential because one of
the things that's really significant about me making is that it's
highly influenced by the person who's making it
environment. So they feed into it a
lot of history in terms of like the kinds of plants that
are growing around and the kinds of colors that exist at the time and the
There's an influence of like seeing in the world in terms of
what it looks like. But there's also an influence of like who it's being
made for so often beadwork is made for a very
particular reason and there's a very beautiful work of zulu
love letter of a woman. It's got
a series of excess on it and it's a love letter that a
woman made with her fiance to say, please go and find
out from the elders when you're gonna marry and the
exes were actually them out of time. It's just like you've got
three months to do this. So there's a lot
of like a conversational aspect that happened in the need work that
speak to a societies speak to relationships speak to
all kinds of things. So they mix together complex layer
of things. And so this is a
question that we kind of throughout and we did all see some workshops
across the continent and really kind of unpacking what
would a vocabulate for vernacular algorithms
be and if we're to bring it and this evolved and
kind of rushing along and spend this
evolved into
Projects which we started running schools in vernacular
algorithms and which took that a
little bit further and actually looked at how to really think
about not only the object itself and
what it holds from an algorithmic perspective both
in terms of knowledge but also
history and sexual mathematics.
What else is happening there? We kind
of started taking a closer look at how this knowledge
is transferred and you know in in salute
communities taught and
shared in a kind of very active
in physical engagement a kind of tech. There's a
kind of Technology sharing that's happening and in
the making of a leader of Peace So the image here
is a very beautiful piece by
an artist the policy will do today who's very part of this budget.
So when communities practice being when
they gather in groups to share knowledge and participate in
this year activities, they share
Request generations and there's a communal and
individual and kind of adaptation of
skills and Concepts that
happens whenever a knowledge is transferred. So it's not set. It's
not set in stone and works. They
work together towards a common understanding of Concepts and they
also allow for Innovation to happen
in that space and there's also a kind of shared decision-making process
that happens there in
terms of what gets put into the beadwork and this is
a response to the social environment the physical
environment. And in many ways. This is
a certain social technology and if we go back to and
they and they
then we think about this as a technical
survival within the colonial frame and how knowledge
is held in these faith and this is also
why we look at people making as a
location for for knowledge and Technical knowledge
systems and we understand it as being largely.
Area of the material and review the space through
that and the beadwork itself is mathematical procedure factor.
And like I said before it holds
so many history and personal experiences inside of it.
So the school and I'm gonna
kind of just jump ahead was really
a focus on Rhythm and Lead work and
creative coding. So we were looking at the three
of us involved actually four, but the
other and we ended up not connecting with them because of
covid but until it's a
choreographer and kind of
our own listing things and he was
looking at algorithms that existed in African children songs
and gays which are very procedural and
very systematic and there's it helps to teach with
them it helps to teach and conceptual thinking so we're
looking specifically at the question of algorithms and
songs and please see we came with
me making and mathematical skills and it's explaining how
she constructs things but also brings the world into those
spaces and then I was doing a transfer and when
we're doing a project in France that's neurons and
look taking it into the kind of coding practice.
and what it did was to allow us to subvert in
essence and kind of almost decolonized the question
of what technical culture is
and how it's what what are algorithms and
you know how algorithms formed and
allows us to kind of challenge the existing structure of
algorithmic thinking and
potentially even bringing new systems
of thinking around how
The world's algorithms take place and how Computing
and can exist in different ways at the same
time as teaching very technical things to
young people like mathematics encoding and
so highly complicated and then teaching non-western people
where I mean
westernized people who aren't African they can
other kinds of other things. So I did a lot of things at the
same time and that was
me and the school for
vernacular.
Thanks. Thanks a lot Tegan. We
thanks a lot. So we do questions
at the end or discussion at the end. So I'm going to pass
over now, I guess
to Chris.
Great stuff. I mean it's hardly's a hard acts to
follow right really sharp and smart and
Crikey, John, they make things hard for us. Don't
they but let's have a go at this. Thanks. Everyone really great. Thanks
for inviting me along the course. It's a really interesting this panel.
It's so rare you get a chance to share internationally and
so convivly so let me have a go
at this and let me turn that on there.
How's that? Can you see that? Yes.
Okay, super right. Let's have a go at this. So I'm I put the
timer on as well. Hang on.
You look so I'm based in Edinburgh. You can tell I'm not Scottish, but
don't blame me. It was a circumstances, but
I'm
yeah, a couple of hats and
developed something with John Vines a
whole bunch of people are called design informatics designers working
with and alongside colleagues in the school of informatics publishing
in Kai HCI, but also designed
through drf and always trying to think about the interface between
Making cultures where in which the analog might
be wood metal Ceramics and Plastics along with
the cultures and products and services that people informatics and
machining are exploring
and yeah really fascinating to rip off
both of these talks so far around representations of
perhaps cutesian views
of the world through to being living in the
world and doing things and then of course about the cultures which are
deeply in inscribed within places and
spaces and people's and then have become dominant
according perhaps to West Coast America when we
think about technology. I'm sure the UK's got
lots to answer for in terms of propagating certain
algorithms as well Teague. And so I'm deeply conscious
that I'm speaking from a position in the
global North where Enlightenment was born.
I mean apologies for that. It's something that
gets trotted out in Edinburgh an awful lot and we're doing everything we can
too upend that power position.
So look something I'm going to speak to is economic imaginaries.
So the systems I'm fascinated with
a month many systems are systems in
which value emerges.
And there's a whole bunch of conversations around
design being part of the co-creation of
things and when I think about the co-creation usually
it's not the co-design of
a thing be it a product or a service or a
participatory process. It's before the
co-design we have to talk about the co-creation and
really it's the co-creation for me around value and
the co-creation of value becomes because we
intermingle we share we take part in bringing forward
certain values.
You might suggest that this today's Zoom panel
is really the co-creation of a
series of forms of value. But because that's predicated on
four Scholars bring forward a series
of values. Of course, we're talking about how we represent play
Within systems that relates
to the broader conference, but it's in convening
and co-creation questions of value. Now that
might be social environmental political philosophical maker.
Whatever it is. It's up for
the audience really to lean in and understand what you want to take away
is what was valuable from this
but I'm interested in the moment particularly systems of
money systems of value as we enter
a living a cost of living crisis.
That's how it's Being Framed in the UK and that
with events out with many of our control
your
Your access to how can I
put this your ability to pay for things is going to be under duress
many of us might be quite privileged on this
call. There are many people not having time to attend
this call. We're actually attending this call will
be an extreme privilege. So questions of value and
representations of value. I'm always fascinated with because there is
a dominant representation of value in the form of
money.
Are the artist and creatives of working hard for years
to try to think about how we upend that
representation of value?
So a few years now, we've been working in design informatics about what
happens. If we do change the representation of
value particularly away from a dominant form
of being money into perhaps thinking about social Environmental.
cultural forms, but particularly
how we think about how that then becomes challenged about the
values that we bring forward. So the question today is
if you change the representation of value away from
money.
Into different manifestations. Can you change
the values that you can represent? And what is the limitation of
money to misrepresent different communities
cultures? So on
and so forth. So that's I'll come back to what I'm
fascinated with and doing is this question around what
economic imaginaries are is this in the UK and
a dominant economic imaginary event in which
the representation of value is money and
that's okay as well. I don't think there's a get-out
clause for designers or creatives. I think we have to face this
down right that I'm if the Daily Mail talks about
value and good value. They'll probably
talk about cheapness.
They'll probably bring things that are good value Burger
is a cheap one a good value bus
ride is a good one that's cheap. Now many
of us have also flipping that on its head through if
you rethink about how what the values we
bring to questions of value. Then we have to increasingly take
on board much ground narratives much
longer narratives such as the climate crisis.
But let me just dive into economic imaginaries and I do
think Jessup does a great job. This is a video and I can pass
this around later and really unpacking what an
economic imaginary might be. So economic imaginaries, assuming
that we've left behind a high idea of
an economic ideology that actually we're caught
up in very very complicated social environmental cultural
circumstances in which it's no longer
possible to force and drive an ideology and
economic ideology and may well
have come from America, but actually and I say USA
rather than South America, but actually in the
context of what we're talking about. I think we're all interested in
bringing forward things on the left which are
as Jessup talks about it's the sense and meaning making
all of you will have come to today whether you're
in different places because you may well have
spent some money and how you spent that money how
you made sense of that meaning making within an
economic system. Maybe some of you could afford
Get on the bus. Some of you are lucky enough to stay at home. Some of
you may well have caught a taxi to wherever you're going today your sense
and meaning making with your ability to engage in
the world with your capacity to spend this stuff.
We call money will have had a difference. It's a
sense in making meaning making relationship. Some of
you don't have the capacity to get on a taxi this
morning. Some of you probably don't have private helicopters is my
guess but some of you may well be relying on
public transport. So the sense and meaning making of how
we use money is vital in part to
how we understand our economic imaginary on the
other side. Yes, that will also talk about the structuration
the abstraction that informs your
imaginary the idea of what becomes
Why haven't you got personal helicopter? Maybe
you would never dream if everyone but why haven't you
got access to a taxi? Why do you perhaps use
Ubers when you know, that's a challenging moral
conundrum a new prefer to use local cabs.
What's going on at a big scale in your
culture and Society but then informs why
you have more or less money to
allow you to do certain things. So one
is an abstraction in the
UK. We went through recently the death of a monarch
evoked a whole bunch of questions in the economic imaginary
of I haven't got access to the
scale of funds. I haven't got access to an army
for my funeral. I've got a whole bunch of questions in
the abstraction again minor position from an
English guy in Scotland working in the UK on
the other hand again, we take back to the sense of
meaning-making. So he places do to these two things
in contention and then makes an
Of what our imaginary is around? What is compatible? What
is based on the sedimenting meaning of a years
of using money according to my position
in the world to some other structured
complexity of how I understand the world moving through growing
up through factorism into new labor
and then back out into another Tory government
right government at my end.
so that then becomes compatible that might be my economic imaginary
if I then think then
of what we're trying to do to upend and to
play Within those systems. Well design informatics is
very interested in this proposition, but actually
something is taking place when we think about representations of
value that it's already moving beyond concepts
of money that actually much of
your value being created through the last
few years isn't taking place through cash. It may
well be taking place through these Square devices
in which people are starting to pay
only with credit cards, perhaps it's done when
you use your your device as the as
a card and actually we begin
to offer this proposition to you that something is taking place
where
banks are not holding your money folks.
Banks are holding your data.
And this is an upending. This is a play a playful
way of beginning to rethink about the imaginaries that
rather like Claudia antigen
are presenting but there's a whole bunch of cultures taking place
ours is more challenging it. Well, I think
it challenge because there's no defense of money here because all of
your bank accounts are holding probably more personal information
or personal informatics than
any of your your fitbits your
Apple devices your Google devices because actually
your Banks hold more information about you personally individually,
perhaps even in shared bank accounts than
anybody else in any ecosystem
ever. Somebody you're most intimate
activities are held within your bank account Banks
aren't regulated thankfully or regulated
thankfully to not release or share that data. But if
you imagine what Google will do if Google took your
personal informatic activity that you've been listing for
years possibly.
All of your life and what they would do it with the artists
you can imagine some of the digital economies that
we might be facing but conversely we haven't got that we've
got Banks now having said that we're about to face some regulation
that does change this proposition. But in
the UK in Europe, we're now inviting third parties
into our bank accounts to identify certain
forms of value just aware of my time Claudia and
I'll just speed up a little bit. So I'm fascinated in
the 20th century how we constructive economic imaginaries
or ideologies and how the digital economy
through beginning to co-create value in
different ways by searching Google by writing
into bank accounts. Now, we're beginning to
find and we have some transgressive plays. I was
going to show you. Well, actually we end up value creation at
the end of the 20th century manifest in objects. Actually what's
beginning to happen is that these old value chains
which are very linear being placed
into what we call Value constellations.
And so we begin to see in this little District diagram of
how the Google system works is that you're actually your
data when you work with a company is being handed
off all the time to third parties and in
doing so being machined by many many
ai's and many other third parties which then
present huge problems with leaky data
leaky personal informatics, which present huge problems
in the context of what you believe to
be the representation of value. And as I
come back to this question if you change the representation of value then
from money.
Into digital economies into Data than wow.
Can you change the values that you could represent or are
they in fact under threat. Now? What I was going to jump to now
is just a throwing a little bit of theory. So what we try
and do in designs informatics is used designed to perform agential
Cuts. So our play methodology our
tactic for play is very much to perform cuts across
many of these systems. I won't
dwell on the thesis. But what we find is then how
can the creatives the artist the designers? I work
with perform cuts.
Cross digital economies such as Google to then
ask and reveal moral ethical
insights, which you might fail might find as
compromising or find Opportunities and just two
examples of that. We've been working very much
in the space of smart contracts using blockchain.
So here what you can see is
Jonathan's put one pound coin inside this
strange seesaw.
The device is actually connected to the internet and when he
presses the button on the right what he's doing is initiating a
smart contract if there's an earthquake anywhere
on the planet within the next five minutes, then
we will give your money to Oxfam and
the Cog will turn to the right if there isn't an event
in the world on earthquake then we will you
will get your money back and you will have the chance to give your money
directly to Oxfam through the hole in the right or you
can take it away. Now, these are simple smart contracts and
we've been working with them.
Oxfam now to develop these into an
application which is launched in for some reason.
I don't know why it could have been in the UK. It happens
to be in Australia. So now we're finding that people are downloading
an app and they're giving money to Oxfam but
they're giving it based on entirely conditional circumstances.
If there's an earthquake in the world, then release
funds from this particular bank account.
So again, if I change the representation of value from
something that is somebody demanding money from
me into a condition in which a data
triggers because of an environmental circumstance in
the world, then does that change the
representations of value for ox sound. They're finding
that actually the trust framework rather than Oxfam saying
that there's a circumstance in the world
and we were offer marketing actually the sensor
tells us that there's a problem then actually
then people are more trustworthy. They give them money converter for
the also in Australia if a right-wing
Politician tweets disparagally disparagingly
around refugees then. Let's
put the money out. So we've been doing it with an
oxide various waves. In fact more recently. We're doing it with the
coal. They've got the some of the biggest coal exports
from Australia. So every time
this these ships leave Newcastle, they're actually
people are passing back money to kind of offset carbon.
Now, the last thing I'm going to show you is where we try to
again contravene in these imaginaries the idea that
your bank accounts are also data sets. I was
going to give you a live demo, but I'm gonna speed up and just show
you the last piece of work what we've been doing in this
small video here. Let me just get it going. It's trying
to write into your bank accounts. So we demoed this in
And build out DRS what's happened?
There is someone's tapped the strict little square device and
on the right what you'll find is a visualization
a live data feed and you'll see that they're bank account
has just taken a pound off them.
But if somebody Tweets in the world with
the hashtag climate action, then we will
refund them. So those two transactions are waiting
in the queue for people to do good in the world and now
we're passing their money back to them. So essentially
we're money laundering we're taking money off
people and we're actually writing money
writing value back into the bank account. So
I'll just show you my bank account here after I've been washing my
money. I was doing it in Europe and you'll
see that I've been washing money at the top there
and the climate action is leaving and someone
else's action in the world back into
my bank account. So it's a reverse money laundering really
it's washing ecological values into my
account and it asks you and I the question of
what is going on in a bank accounts, if the representation of
value shifts from money into
beginning to talk about environmental social
values. I'll stop there just to give us some time but
I hope that makes sense
and demonstrates the idea of play that we're performing in
Edinburgh around
Yeah economic imaginaries. Thanks.
Great. Thanks a lot Chris. That was
excellent also, and I
pass on to yanis.
Hi, hi, these were fascinating presentations
and I I am here
with an artistic project. So we go from the
economic imaginaries the mathematical applications
that waiting for Globes to
to something that was conceived During the period of the pandemic and
I'll share my screen.
And is a playful.
oops
Can you see my screen?
Yes, okay. So yes, let me
see the but now it's not full screen. We see
your slides on the side. Yeah, I know
find the
play button.
here so
It's okay now.
Yes, okay. So the whole idea started
by a contemplation of
of space and and
and and and this this idea
revolve around
playing playing with analogies and metaphors I
come from Greece have
been in between
two spaces a mathematical space and an artistic space
and and these metaphors
were always my rules
into creating any artistic or
aesthetic experience.
So the whole idea was trying to
create something that relates
artists with space.
We didn't have time to evolve it a lot because suddenly
the pandemic happened and I
was stuck in
space in Paris.
And my friend irini suryavaki
who was in Zurich was stuck in Zurich
not meet to proceed. These are projects
related space and Arsenal.
So we decided to evolve it into creating this ontology of
of.
The the Paradigm of the
astronaut artist and we were isolated. I
was in the sixth floor in an apartment in Paris. She was in
the sixth floor in an apartment in Zurich
and we could not leave our our stations. So
we have to travel through these patients in order to
be able to do our activities or art
events or art poetic creations.
So we we're based in
the creation of that system and going back system.
In Greek can be a system.
It's a loan from the friendship.
But the the original elements is
seen and Eastern which will
stand together and
In the same, we'll see mistosa reflects to
the coordinates. So we started
creating system coordinates for the spatial and
astronautic arts.
So we create we created this system with an
environment and core black
box of decision making and the skin radius in
order to create this kind of metaphors and
analogies between anything that
is a technological speculative physical
digital or mental and
anything that is the application anything
that is related to
the artistic events.
So we started creating the whole structure. There's
also mathematical theory behind
that which is kind of valid. It is related
to categories Theory. So it's a bit like super abstract and
valid even after so we
kind of cheated there and and
that that theory supports the connection and
the relationship between two different astronauts a
lot of me with a distance and traveling and
Direction and also a
navigation chart navigational chart and also the Sith
And for us into that environment,
especially in that technological environment
of multiple devices applications and
phones computers laptops
at same time. We propose
that the self is moved. Also. This
is a really ask about approach and influence.
So the
self is presented as a multiplication different elements.
And we we
applied the whole concept of
this arson of artists. So me and Iranian
at the same time of artists were meeting in
order to do a presentation
and the performance of the hobnet
machine from 100 Miller, which is
also very playful play and this is the second
order joke here, but it's playful play is based
on the translation from wheelers into
Shakespearean and it has been presented many times
very many self-referential elements like the
elements and the plot is
very chaotic, but it doesn't have
a structured. It had doesn't have
a strategy but it has a structure and that strategy
and structure and religion the results really the
combination of lots and monologues is
no traditional in that sense.
Also, we through that
through that combination like the spaceships the
afternoon of the metaphors and then and
the height machine we created
the kind of universe within which we tried to create
these performance. I will show you a bit later.
We created analogies and metaphors. Right? So there's
a the interface of the afternoon and interface of
the multiple device that generate that
itself. We created a lot of power meetings
discussion using all of our
account like from Instagram Viber WhatsApp, which
are Facebook everything together at the
same time to create this kind of at least as an example
and then no one expected like
So we created these spaces were
transportation is in times is it is
sent through a
morphism of this is the categorical approach to
metaphors and the variations of ready between
the artists in consonant ideas and their
experience are the benefits of the linear time, right?
and
Similarly, we created a pyramid of needs in
analogy Masters. Once with other astronautic
arguments were we do need isolation. We
didn't the station a communication substrate and
the further technology in order
to proceed the many cells.
and and we managed
to gather a lot of data from from
object in space. One of them is called Ophelia 171
and we use that as an
example to
Create that connection with.
Hamlet affiliate also very famous for
her tragic history in Hamlet where
eventually you should drown after becoming insane because
of Hamlet.
So we played with that Insanity as
well with all these multiplications as you can see on the
right with them different inputs of
communication.
So eventually we gathered all
the text translated automatically in Skype
from Greek to
English which created the total paradoxical narrative
and we were still
working on that text as well. We use that as
part of the storytelling stuff with you
within
and I'll show you a few things now. Let me
know if you can hear. Maybe I need
to.
Can you hear the sound?
Remember no, but is it playing
Let me let me share again with some.
and I'll pass a bit fast to the
Wouldn't have too much time. I want to go here the definition
right here.
So we kind of like formulated definition is enough.
And I mean we discovered stars and
we created all these.
connections with
the person who's not
and eventually I'll sharing some part and become so
able to
of the performance. Let me see.
And eventually all of the all of the elements were combined into
a system that was playing all over the
data at the same time and that eventually could lead the video.
in total is about 15 minutes, or I'm not
gonna show you now, but I can show you some parts of
the
moments where we are reading the text.
in a computer review
All positive paraphero and I'm continuing
it doesn't have to come too much. This is the so
we use the number 171 because
it's related to the meteorite called
the one. Okay, so I'm gonna stop the early one.
Oops.
So I just don't wrap this thing up because I know that we
don't have too much time and I was trying to quickly package everything
under 10 minutes. The whole
idea was to play with these functions. It's
morphisms between different spaces and
different concept. Right? So the one one Concepts the
physical space the other one is the speculative space.
The other one is a subjective space and we're created
all these connections between them in order to
find out how these poetic process
of artistic art after enough
or could be explained.
So I think it was a yeah
a manifestation of playfulness.
Right. Thanks a lot, Janice and everyone
for the presentations. We
all we included
took longer than planned. But so
now we don't have as much time for the discussion
as we thought but
I think so we
Whoever has questions, please either write
them in the chat or you can just unmute your
microphone as long as there's no question.
Yeah.
Coming forward. I'm just going to continue the
discussion Among Us.
So for me, it's quite interesting to think
about this notion of play also
and
We all have a background in art
but we also all of
us kind of often past that
threshold into design and is
that notion of play actually,
is that something is there a different notion of
play in art or what do we is there
something we learned from art that we kind of
apply in design maybe that that
is something that kind to my mind while I was
looking at at the presentations because there
seems to be something particularly subversive maybe
in this notion of play as
it emerges in
the context of Art.
And all of us seem to have that now it
is this question. Can we apply this? What
can we do with this?
That's just just to jump it. I think isn't it
because they it struck me that I suspect depending on the community that
you're interacting or relating or part
of my lunch is that people might see
teagan's work as social policy?
And in my community when I when I show this to Bankers,
they think wow we could use this to do some virtue signaling
if we could write into people's bank accounts climate
crisis, we could take ownership of a marketing
opportunity. So it might be that
all of the the play becomes playful
because another party
Then is able to own it and that now we might
not want them to or not. We might be interested in them appropriating
it but my hunch is whenever
I played in front of different audiences people
have found ways to appropriate it
in a critical sense or in you know,
in a commercial sense. I don't know where that's the case with you John Teague
and the idea that people will find things in your
play and they because it's playful.
They will own it. I think that's okay. I
the perimeters around that are always
interesting between design does I want people to adopt our things
artists might be less concerned worried
about adoption. Does that make sense?
I I think that that's also a way to
apply or Lumber.
Idea, right. I mean playfulness becomes the
playfulness of the Observer.
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I hope
so. I think I'm quite happy with it. Although I can see other
people.
Might not be sometimes artists onto well. They
don't want to worry about the interpretation. They want to
stay away.
Yeah, it's interesting that you say that because I think
with the
schools have been actually algorithms like
broad enough in kind of like unpacking it and allowing it to
revolve by itself. I think it was what is really wanted me
in it was that there was a community of practice. So every
single time we shifted the goal post
of what it could be why it existed or what was there's
always an outside influence that had that so
I never really wanted to lead it in a way
that I wanted to do the owner of this thing and quite interestingly because of
that. It's such a diverse question and that
everybody sees it wants to do different things with it.
So some people are chasing me to go and
develop a primary school curriculum for
South African students on this which I would love
to do good. Do I have this good to do that other people
are you know, really thinking about a philosophy
of Technology perspective and how do we then write this into
African plus technology and how to do that so that
every angle there's a there's a potential for for this
to be something for this to be something else and I
think that's
And it's a bit scary because I've always done it as
in the perspective of an artist thinking about challenging a space
and criticizing that space or untangling that
space in different ways or bringing in you way of thinking
to a group of people and that's the
I suppose the advantage of the United States. You
can do that without having to have an end product. And and yeah,
it's quite a lot of questions feel that
one of those should become an intellect and some point and what else
can be done with it, you know.
Did you mind if I follow up clearly I'm cute because another question then
is to what extent do each
of us find that there might be dark play?
So what you've just done there Tegan is a
suggest that people have read into the opportunity and they've found
very altruistic opportunities to inform education policy.
Whenever we
do this with the square device, we get
shut down because actually hmrc and
square see it as money laundering in other
words. It's dark play. So that makes sense. So
they literally see we got kicked off some up some up
is another one of these payment platforms and they
just saw us that this is the speed guy is just taking
money and refunding it taking money
and refunding he must be money laundering.
Because we're not seeing any profit. So I'm so just
so if we are playful I wonder to what
extent.
Each of you find people appropriating it
appropriating it toward a Darkness because sometimes
that's okay. Well, it's not that it well. It's
okay because
That's what play does. Does that make sense? Hmm?
Actually, we have some questions in the chat. I
would like to also I mean if you
if you have a microphone, please just
a mute yourself and feel free to kind of join the
discussion, but I can also
read these if otherwise
so one one comment really
was also about someone being like
American and then trying to open.
like
open a bank account in Switzerland because of and this
being problematic because there are
very different Notions of what of what
personal data is or
what what someone like
a bank
Should do with it.
So like that's quite interesting comment. I'm
wondering in this context whether Chris you
have come across these different ideas of
personal data with your project.
Yeah, and I can fall in fold in the answer to Laura's Point
as well really. But yeah, so we've found that
every you'll all find as a financial regulation Authority
or a financial.
What's the word the foa in the UK? It is a
whole bunch of financial something authorities and they're all we
had to buy every every country we go to we have to buy another
one of these.
Which is really bizarre for digital so I can take my
phone abroad into multiple countries, but I
must have a specific region specific device. So
which speaks to regulation because again regulation
around data is very very
different to money. So I like that and that's maybe
speaking to the second question. Which this is where the cut comes
in. I don't know if I'm misappropriating Brad here,
but I like the cut. I like to place people into an awkward
moment. So if I ask Tegan or
John or Claudia to tap
Spiritually with their advice and they might offer me
I could say I'm not sure what currencies you're operating in
but a pound is fine.
And I refund it. I trust you. I can refund it refunds because
people always tweeting on climate action when you raise the
stakes to a hundred pounds, I guarantee you
will be refunded.
But the stakes change and the Jeopardy changes
so Lara, I really like this Jeopardy moment.
So it's maybe that's the artist in me. I like to
raise the stakes and I like to ask so the ethics
for this because I we had to pass an ethics.
Team policy panel in Edinburgh, which
are really hot and they were very uncomfortable because in the
ethics it guarantees usually to follow the data. I
can't follow the data with square. I just
can't so when I asked you to consent you have to
agree that I can't offer you following the data,
but that's part of the the Jeopardy. How do
I take you to a place where otherwise these things are
so seamless into a place of Jeopardy and uncomfortable.
So
yeah, what's the effect or the emotions? Yeah
place you in conditions in which your economic imaginary
takes you out of the norm. I hope that's okay.
Well, I don't care if it's okay. That's that's what
I tried to do.
So it's it's dark play the super subversive
play or a stark play.
The the one that is appropriated by
the big players.
I have done enough talking to you John. I wonder whether how that
yeah, because I suspect you've both got Works which might
want to be appropriated with a and that then
becomes subjective whether it's dark or light.
I mean just before I answer that you
said something very interesting and
Also all that was in a different context, so I'm appending it.
You said I don't care that my opinion, right?
At some point and I think these also
kind of like reflects to the question from Queen
Clerk.
About feeling pressure whether
acting as
an artist or as sign.
So I'm just using it like to hire a
hijack with the discussion. I
think that the artist has
this kind of need to
go into this place of risk and and
openness in
meaning and not necessarily any type
of functionality and and of course
Because I come from a background of
Applied Arts before I went into the finance.
And I feel a lot
of pressure when I'm asked to do something which design related.
And I found myself the last years not not
being able to do that, which is a bit of a problem in a
personal approach and I'm dealing with it. But I find
a lot of pressure there and I cannot easily
cope this switching between my
my heart Direction, you know,
I cannot switch so fast to go
to something that I love and and enjoy
something that I don't really care and I
have to go through the big post caring in order to do.
listen
Here, I think it's I I suppose it
depends the kind of design task, but they
tend to be obviously very
many more constraints than
in a typical kind of art context and it's
it's more difficult to do this appending
but I think it's beside precisely
because of it. It's maybe more interesting
often than in
art context. So I think
for me, it's actually quite important to to be
to play Within the context of design because because
of
this possibility to kind of
maybe
affect more I mean
because they are more constraints and because the
expectations are typically that the
designers kind of
you know the kind of
provide the
the
What is what they asked to
provide and then to do this, but at the
same time to append things?
That that is the challenge I think.
Just to qualify a bit where because that the transcript
will say Christian Care and he well so I don't care
about the Miss interpretation. I do
care about the people. I really do and John you didn't
set that up. I said it you're not you but I do so we
ran through the ethics and I am really concerned.
About the look on your face when I say would you like to charge
a thousand bucks, but I don't force
you to do it. But what I what I
don't carry to control the interpretation, but I
do yeah, we did run through ethics and
I do I do care about how you
I can take you to a moment that places on your
imaginary, but I wouldn't want to force you into any participant
into a place of
Being uncomfortably. Does that make sense? Sorry. I'm just
aware. It's still curious about Tegan how people whether people
might come into your work to see.
not dark play but whether they want to
because I can imagine if you don't mind me saying there's some great virtue
washing that we could do with regional.
Efforts to to kind of show that
people are engaging in Regional algorithms, I
think local algorithms. Does that make sense that it
would be
Virtue washing if people aren't involved participatory.
Does that make sense?
And what do you mean by virtue watching? Sorry. Well, I
so I could go into a community in Scotland and
and I could do some algorithmic Regional
local algorithmic workshops
borrowing some of your methods showing them some
of the pictures that you might have had in a slide
Decker on the internet and then I could take those back to
Edinburgh and say look what we've done in the local regions. The community
are really wedded to manifesting Regional
algorithmic practices, but I
would only be using it rhetorically almost suggest that
Chris is doing a good community service. Do you
see what I mean? And but yours is a deep practice, right?
Yeah, it's a complicated thing because I've also not so while
I'm leading a conversation on it. I'm also not practicing
it myself, you know, I am practicing but I'm
not I've never I've never enacted any aspect
of the project unless without like extreme
consultation and I think this this is
also how and
The principles that I'm addressing will are
that like that that knowledge is
shared in a community of practice and I think one of the other thing one of
the other things is it's representation. So one
of the really big issues I think around I kind
of colonial practice but also I suppose in
a way like being a a I mean
I can make eight generation British and
Colonial you call
myself that like eight Generations in and I'm deeply
South African bit and I'm not culturally from
from South Africa so I don't I'm not really and
I don't have like it's really Heritage so I can't like
playing that this is my Heritage and this is how I practice and
this is what I do. Actually I have a very bastardized British
Heritage at home will be speak English and maybe
eat for us be vacationally but have no connection
at all with with the UK.
So I think there's also the
thing I have I have the right.
Represent a kind of practice and
talk about a practice from only my perspective.
So that's not possible for me to do. So in
every case. It's always about bringing a bead
worker in to to work on and speak through her
practice or working with and classrooms. Like
who's working in this in his own practice in different ways as well.
So he's a really accomplished composer and
a choreographer and so it's also about
him just kind of speaking about that from his own perspective.
So I would never so while I'm fascinated in it
because it allows us to challenge a very certain question. I'm
very aware of like this is why it's interesting to me and why it's significant
to my work and I like this is why it's a liquid
to him and his book again. Please rehearse and in each
case and each time each iteration of the project we had
contributed to then have their own
position and encounter with the work and I
think it
It heightens it as well. It gives it a lot of like
a meaning because it's not me saying like philosophizing
about what it is, but it also allows allows each
person to take that practice into their own community
in a different way. And so I will do work with
it in the university in one way with my students and clientele working
with it in with his performers and the work
that he does and composing and writing plays in different ways.
And that's the point. It's really slow.
Crazy amounts of slow. It's not something that you can
have gold posts on let's say this year, we're gonna do this and
that's gonna be the outcome. So every year we
try and do a little bit of something and the schools
have been actually out because we still actually want to run it here probably in
South Africa. But again, it's like finding the
right time for including the right time for please do it and
I kind of feel that
It to talks about the time that we
don't really have control over. It's also a system generally
so used to say you're gonna start something and think and
then that's how it's gonna be. But this way we also just
letting it take its own time. And so
it's beyond and
It's yeah, it's beyond a kind of controllable time as well because
it's it's about life and how we think about it and itself has
to unpack and become in its own
way. And so that's I don't know if that really answers
your question. But yeah.
Yeah, no, it's great. It's difficult project because people
often ask me about where needs to go and I think that I
think that I'd like to do and I think that people would like to do and I'm
okay with them doing that. I don't feel that there's an ownership here
as long as this value in a very
particular way and it's a consultant that you know,
Dad, super great. Yeah, great. We are
unfortunately already at the
end of the the time we have scheduled for
this panel. I was wondering we need
it seemed maybe you had another note
to question.
Something Ryan maybe once it's to transmit
at the beginning.
I think I
yeah, yeah did Queenie put our face on the screen? I felt
so bad talking over and that felt really naughty Queenie. So
if you if that was you just jump back. Sorry. Yes. Yeah, no
worries. No, I was just
I kind of was I was interested with the question that
I asked I was interested in thinking about more like
The pressure of play so I I
found that the the there's an
assumption that players always good.
and in different situations actually playfulness can
be quite a privileged position and I
just wondered in your own practices where if you found tensions
of that of using play and where you've maybe
had to pull back from that idea of something being
playful or not playful and because I
guess that relating that back to kind of systems it
kind of depends that context or system that you're working in
is how you understand what
play is and stuff that
but it is 33 minutes past. So I
under some people will be very hungry probably for their lunch. Yeah, so
you don't need to answer it really that was wiping my face on and
for Ryan's message. He did
put it in the chat, but they just wanted to thank the
facilitators and panelists for making this session happen as
a part of our sdx and invite everyone to join
a community discussions happening online between sessions
at the website link that they've they
put in it's on display. Maybe we should
post it again because there are some people joining
late. There we go.
Oh, okay. Great. Super excellent. All
right, but thank you.
Yeah in a way it's a bit sad we're ran
out of time so quickly and it
would be great to answer this question,
but it's a lovely it's a lovely bookend Queenie because
you're absolutely right. We shouldn't I mean we I am deeply privileged
even to find the time on a Saturday
morning when I used to empty the Lego with the kids on the
floor.
And that it was there wasn't there
was a time excess. Some people are very time poor and
that ability to just go to a place where two kids
need two kids. We didn't solve the Lego according
to the program.
We just said what does this do when you put it like this?
What does this do when you put it like that and that is
a tremendous privilege to have the time and space
to stand outside.
Of time on a Saturday morning when we've created.
A weekend, which is another social construction. Does that
make sense? And so now yeah, I think
you it's brilliant. Yeah great points and
Acknowledge the ability in the time as academic to
stand outside, which is again another privilege to
play. Yeah, many people don't have the chance to
Yes.
No, I think it's it's a good point really to
acknowledge that this is a position of privilege.
whereby
I mean
I mean when we are teaching I mean this could go on
forever, you know, because obviously we're trying
to not necessarily to transmit this
notion of
but
but play can also I mean it could
also take you out of a position of this
privilege, you
know.
I think this is what we're interested in. So.
While one can look at Players something
that is opposite, you know acted out
from a position of privilege. I
think what we are really interested in when we also
talking to students and and teaching
and
and to to you to
transmit it
as a notion of like getting out of a position
of being this privileged.
To to create to to
really change the system.
maybe that is again privileged knowledge then but
especially when we act we do this at the
University when we act with in within communities,
it's obviously very different.
So it's easy with them
not just to kind of wrap up
and say like, you know, the
you know when you talk about privilege and we talk about those things and
also money like you're saying Chris like the
no working with PC where like I met pcware
and in the market.
and she makes speed work for her religion
her religion and which is Shameless that really
complicated stuff position there religious things that she makes
it for ceremony and that kind of stuff and she Herbert
her family or in case it and
And you know within when we started working
together, I went to go visit her home and she
she lives in like near like really poor
purple like it literally an intern Shack and in a
in a Township and it you know, the
the advantage of working on the project with me was that she would get
to make more work and sell more work and have the opportunity
to to do that. So she she was really amazing
to me because that was her, you know getting through to
children and being able to educate them was like the so
desperate and yeah, she
could sit with me and have really long mathematical conversations about
what she was making and the philosophies behind
it and the cultural implications behind it and was and you
know for me, I know that when I invite her to Workshop to
work and she's not doing free I have to find a way to pay him and
that's also why the project is kind of quite delayed because we and
it's not a it's not a man and monetize project
we do we don't charge for it, but I
would have to find funding and find a way to do that.
And pay her bus, you know talking about transport. How do
you get here? I would send her money so that she could get a taxi to
come because it was actually really expensive for her to come to
me. So I think that the levels of you know,
what how do we understand privilege? And you know,
what are we doing there? They're extremities of who you
might work with and what their privileges are like you're saying
this and how they understand the systems that they're working.
I think are really really challenging from a luck a
lot of different levels, but I think it can't assume that
and having privileges, you know,
please like very upset task and
I'm talking philosophy and Mathematics and yet
it hasn't been years in her
life. And I think you know thinking about how we we
think about knowledge and culture systems on
student who understands our systems. I think
it's really really important here and then it's not doesn't
belong to listen to people it belongs to everybody.
And I think that's really significant. Sorry. I just had
to put that in there. I think it's
yes, that is actually a great ending I
think.
so I would like to thank everyone
who joined this panel obviously
and everyone who
here you really joined this panel and
Still is still here, and we
will have a recording and I'm going to share it
with the organizers and I assume they
will put it up somewhere.
Um, yeah. So then with this we are at
the end of the session.
We are wishing you a nice day or evening or light
Wherever You
Are.
And thanks a lot.
Thank you.
Thanks, so bring us together Claudia.
Thanks to all of you. Really. I was
brilliant. I think great. Thank you.