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Today, we're going to speak about playing within systems

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for change.

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and we have

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besides myself

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and yanis John Bart,

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of course here Tegan, Bristow and crispeed.

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Tegan joins us from South Africa

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where she is a principal researcher and

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Senior lecturer at the wits School

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of the Arts with a specialization on African art

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culture and Technology.

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She also acts as an editor-in-chief and

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digital editor of the Ellipsis journal for

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Creative research.

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Chris is located in Scotland. He said it

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already. He has a background in art. He's also the director

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of Edinburgh Futures Institute and a

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chair of design informatics and

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I think he will probably say

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a little bit more about what he's doing also in

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his presentation. And Janice John

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is currently in France.

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got a background in art and Mathematics and he

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we are

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all and he's also

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with me on the editorial board of a

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journal called Technologic Arts, which was founded

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by

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Someone called Roy escort who

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is connecting all the four of us?

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And that is basically also the reason for this panel.

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I was I was socks asked by Ben sweeping

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if I could organize a panel

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for this conference that has more for

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nuts Focus, but nevertheless kind of connects Art

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and Design and systems and Roy

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Ascot is quite famous in Britain

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for having introduced system thinking cybernetics

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thinking into art education.

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He's really a Pioneer and

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in in participatory and interactive

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art and art education notably.

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He's won the golden eagle and currently the

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professor emeritus at the University of Plymouth. And

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he's did how must of technoitic arts

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and Shanghai and all of four of us

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have gone through his kind of guidance have

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been Guided by him for for some

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time in our life

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in Tegan has gone our PhD you

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Swiss Roy. Chris was connected to

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the planetary collision at the same time.

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and

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and Janice is currently teaching for in Shanghai.

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So that is our background, really?

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and from there we

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were discussing what the focus

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of this panel could be.

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And we came up with this idea of where

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we looked at what we are doing

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really and how our practices are

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connecting.

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and how our practices could

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Be discussed as a theme and and

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also.

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Maybe I mean obviously we

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had in mind this idea of systems and

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how are and and art could

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connect to system. So this focus

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on the idea of play.

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Is what came up

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in this in this previous first discussion

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that I had with Chris and

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we're looking at all our works.

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I think I'm not going to read the abstract

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again because all the short excerpts

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from

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our PDF it's it's on the

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on the website, but I'm going to jump in

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to this.

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Into this presentations, so we are going

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to do a quick presentation 10 minutes each.

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So it's going to be after 45 minutes. We're

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going to be have finished the first part.

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and then we are going to enter a

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discussion and at this

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point you're very much invited obviously to

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participate in the discussion, but also before that it's

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it's you're always welcome to

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add questions in the chat and

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we will

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then already have the opportunity to think

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about these questions and

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or we could respond.

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So we will collect these questions while we

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are going that's the idea.

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Yeah, so that's why I'm going to do now. I'm just

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going to jump into my presentation. I'm listed first

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here. So

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I'm going to do this.

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So playing within systems for change

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one point of view when you

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point one.

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I have a background in both architecture and art

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and I have been located in China for now

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roughly 10 years and this situation

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of Crossing disciplines and

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cultures as

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quite often made me rethink many

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things.

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But what I would like to talk about today is

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the relationship between art

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and ecology.

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There's a strong connection between landscape poetry

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landscape painting and embodied emotional

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experience of nature of landscape

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in the Chinese context. That is

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not quite so the cut.

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It's very different in in the

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western idea of

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landscape. We don't really have this emotional connection index

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sense.

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So this was an initiation for me

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to rethink some of the images and

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Notions that we are.

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Encountering at the moment also in

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in the context of the ecological crisis.

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It's it's quite clear

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that

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there is

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something has happened and especially with

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this image of the globe that was for

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me something to think about it seems

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that

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this it seems that this image

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of the globe as it has been.

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Published again. And again in the context

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of technology is somehow something

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that is quite detached from

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our experience.

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And I was quite interested in this notion of of

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this experience of

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this of this image.

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And digging into this a

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little bit.

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Obviously one can find.

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Recent critique by people like donoharaway

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announcing in Kenneth always were

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also highlight that there is

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this this idea the view of the Earth as

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a globe is has been misleading.

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And this image is

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actually quite new. I mean we

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did the first

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full Globe image

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of CSS as a photograph is from 1972.

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It was taking on

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the Apollo 17

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spacecraft flight.

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and when we look into history

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it's quite apparent that this first when this

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image was first published there were

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but there were very different Notions of

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what we perceive today when

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we think about this this image, so

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I have here a quote

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by Margaret Mead.

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published

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on at the occasion of the Earth Day

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from 1977 only in

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the last Squad of my life has come to know what it

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means to be custardians of the future of

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the earth to know that unless we care unless we

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check the rapacious exploitations of

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our Earth and protected we and

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gendering endangering sorry

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and dangering the future of our children and

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our children's children.

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We did not know this before except in little

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pieces people knew that they had to take

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care of their own but it was not until we

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saw the picture of the Earth from the Moon that we

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realized how small and how helpless this planet

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is.

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Something that we must hold in our arms

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and cares.

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So this notion is quite.

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different from

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the critique that we've seen by far

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away and insane and so

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on.

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it seems

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that a shift of point of view has taken

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place in the meantime.

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We look at the Earth from space and from the distancy a

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perfect sphere the globe.

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The view from space is like the bird eye view

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and design and could also speak and for

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God's view. It is in any case of you

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that is detached from the experience of everyday life.

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It assists rationalization, but

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also radical simply vocation with

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a focus of research shifting to the analysis

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of movement. So that would be a critique.

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And they're older images that meet

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this kind of notion of the globe

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as something that is.

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looked at from outside and

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an object that we can

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at free will play with

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in a scene that Charlie Chaplin Master

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fully conceived for the film The Great Dictator Hinkle

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Hunker the ruler of tumania is

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shown in his office of Imperial Grandeur

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taking a globe of its stand.

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Throwing it into the air.

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He catches it and tips it into the air again.

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As a gymnast us with the ball.

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As in rhythmic gymnastics were more complex

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figures typically follow simpler ones.

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He presents more extravagant moves. Once

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he seemingly becomes at ease with

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the basic ones.

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Chaplain's performance presents the audience with an

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ambiguous image of a global that suggests graceful

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Beauty and at the same time radical negligence

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at the abuse.

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As it is planet Earth that figures as a

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ball the grace we would associate with

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the gymnasts small play.

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ballplay flips into the negation of

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Grace

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as chaplain shows what looks like place not

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necessarily play as it incorporates Direction

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and purpose towards an external goal

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serving the detectors eagle and not the

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beauty of the performance.

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Gymnast engaging in a performance

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is always within a state

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of play but the dictators tipping and kicking of

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the global into the air appears to

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be affected from this out.

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But Margaret meets stated something that

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we must hold in our arms and careful.

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So how did that shift take place?

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At this point perhaps we need to be reminded.

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that

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images always meet other images

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and stories

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It matters what ideas used to think

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other ideas with it seems like a very simple

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thing to say. It says don't know her away it especially

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matters. What ideas used to think other ideas

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with if one of them is not in control

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of the other if they reach into and interrupt each

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other if the result of using ideas to do

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ideas with destabilizers both

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in ways to change the name of the game for the

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possibility of ongoingness and countable to

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the power structures of the encounters and

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the entanglements.

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The picture of the Blue Marble was sent into the context of

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the series of Journey.

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And Journeys and first personal narratives

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that are highly emotional of astronauts Living

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Earth and seeing as Earth from

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the space.

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So this is the shift.

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And I'm going to cut this short there's a history

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to this which has been quite nicely described

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in the literature.

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I'll also from this first whole earth

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catalog technology.

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The context of the whole earth catalog

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was already had this kind of DIY technology,

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but then these companies became Global

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players and with this.

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with this development from the year why

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to Global

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global corporate players also

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the shift the the ideas

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of

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this image of the globe changed.

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I I would like to just quickly. I'm already

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over time mentioned that

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this is obviously nothing unusual. We

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have always images in

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the context of other images.

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In this case proposal in response to

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a competition for the celebrations of the Yugoslav youth

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they in 1987 celebrating Tito's

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birthday seven years

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after his death. That is the image shown

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on the slide. The poster was chosen by

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generals of the Yugoslav Peoples Army in

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high ranking Yugoslav politicians.

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It was printed in millions of newspapers. What

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was never produced as a poster only shortly after

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the competition disposed to became a huge

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Scandal by

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the posts and fact was a Nazi

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poster only the symbols had been exchanged. It's

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a wellness story in the

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recent history of

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Contemporary Art.

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And quiet revealing how how these

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images exist obviously

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within the system and that's works of

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art.

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exists within systems and artists play

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in systems and

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I think this notion of play

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Is very important?

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The gymnasts engaging in a performances always

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within the state of play but the dictators tipping

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and kicking off the global into the air peace

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to be affected from without. I say

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the performance records the process of objective education

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that actualizes detachment.

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The scene does reflect and question not

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only the hubris of Germany's Hitler

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but also the practices that encompanied.

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00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:08,100
a compliment need the fascist

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rule

325
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and this is one of the images that comes to mind in this

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context. There's another

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00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:22,100
rhythmic gymnastics with or without apparatus was

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what what countless girls in

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Nazi Germany engaged in as part of their training

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for good motherhood and service to the nation.

331
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But there's no male version of listening gymnastics.

332
00:17:40,500 --> 00:17:44,000
And chaplain's performance presenting a dictator's Globe

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gymnastics integrates seemingly disparate opposed

334
00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:50,300
and opposing Nations resists objectification.

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the characteristic of this principle of integration

336
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is referred to by Gregory by

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itself as Grace.

338
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And with this I am at the end of my part and

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00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:07,700
sorry for.

340
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:09,700
taking

341
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:12,700
a bit over time

342
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and I hand over.

343
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:20,800
I guess to the next person.

344
00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:25,600
on the on our second slide

345
00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,900
Tegan would you like to present next?

346
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:33,400
Sure, let me get started and

347
00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:33,800
share.

348
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and

349
00:18:36,700 --> 00:18:37,600
I have a problem.

350
00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:39,900
and

351
00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:50,600
is it clear?

352
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,100
Yes, we can see you. Thank you. Okay, good.

353
00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:58,300
Thanks. And yeah, I

354
00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:02,700
mean, I think it's quite interesting that we're all coming from very disparate places

355
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:05,500
or the world and practices and yet so

356
00:19:05,500 --> 00:19:08,400
connected in so many things and so the

357
00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,800
work that I'm going to be focusing on is a question

358
00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,400
that I've been playing out quite some time actually

359
00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:18,300
since 2016 and it's called the school for vernacular groups

360
00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:20,200
and it really kind of

361
00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:24,300
looks at the practice of beadwork and as a

362
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:29,700
Kind of knowledge transfer location and really

363
00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:32,100
from the perspective of South Africa

364
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where beadwork and beadwork making

365
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,200
is a very communal practice. So it's a often and

366
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existing with women. It's kind

367
00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,900
of over intergenerationally and it's

368
00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:46,600
highly complex and different

369
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,900
kinds of ways and I'll be speaking to that. So I am taking

370
00:19:49,900 --> 00:19:52,800
Bristol and I'm

371
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,400
at the University of Central South

372
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,500
Africa and I work in the digital arts department specifically.

373
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,200
But I also ran a festival for many years called The Faculty African

374
00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:05,300
digital Innovation Festival, which was also

375
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:08,400
again kind of intersecting with technology and play

376
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and from gays actually

377
00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:14,500
means add power will add electricity actually

378
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:17,600
and which is a bit funny because we have a major

379
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,400
power crisis in Johannesburg. You don't

380
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,500
have much and but it also is used

381
00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:27,700
in and dance so fun games like

382
00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:30,700
really put the energy in and I think a lot

383
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:33,500
of people might know that South African music cultures.

384
00:20:33,500 --> 00:20:36,300
It's very dance orientated and I think it's worth well

385
00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:39,300
thinking about the context from which

386
00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:42,600
I was speaking which is very vibrant very performative and

387
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,200
a cultural and Community level and this is

388
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:47,600
where the work is situated and

389
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:52,400
of change movements and

390
00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,200
so the this work particularly is really comes

391
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,100
out of a teaching a curriculum here

392
00:20:58,100 --> 00:20:59,200
at the University which

393
00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:04,700
Technology acts curriculum, which is dominantly Western

394
00:21:03,700 --> 00:21:06,400
lead. There's very little history

395
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,800
of Technology outside of the kind of Western world and

396
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,300
it was really hard for me when I was teaching here

397
00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:16,500
to kind of speak to young African students about,

398
00:21:15,500 --> 00:21:18,900
you know, their practice in technology

399
00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:21,600
spaces and because it's so dominated by

400
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,700
the west or the

401
00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:27,300
North and the kind of ownership that can

402
00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:32,200
happen there is often through sort

403
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,700
of changing practices or Shifting

404
00:21:33,700 --> 00:21:37,500
the way something works or finding your own system within

405
00:21:37,500 --> 00:21:40,400
it within existing system. And so this

406
00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,700
is where the world comes from and I did a

407
00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:46,800
lot of research that really looked she's kind of understanding history

408
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,400
and cultures of technology in relation to

409
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,600
Africa specifically both historic and contemplary

410
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,900
and you know the content we African technology

411
00:21:55,900 --> 00:21:59,300
history is a very defined race history of

412
00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:00,000
colonialism.

413
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:03,300
I think I mean it's obviously clear to a lot of people that you know

414
00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:06,100
modernity and colonialism are one in the same

415
00:22:06,100 --> 00:22:09,700
thing. So a lot of global salt

416
00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:13,500
and African positions on modernity are Colonial and

417
00:22:12,500 --> 00:22:16,200
not necessarily modern as

418
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,700
one would see that and obviously technology and

419
00:22:18,700 --> 00:22:22,600
industrialization and even now contemporary near

420
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,400
Colonial technology positions are

421
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,400
kind of led by that frame and so

422
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,600
one of the things that I really wanted to do is to unpack

423
00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:34,200
and curriculum was where was where

424
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,400
the technology exist and what was the question

425
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,600
of technology and really kind of led a

426
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,900
lot by and looking at Technical and

427
00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:45,900
mathematical practices and in

428
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,500
cultural practices because that's where it's transferred.

429
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:53,500
That's where the knowledge existence and existing other space is

430
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:56,400
due to colonialism. So it was it's quite interesting

431
00:22:56,400 --> 00:23:00,000
to understand how things like the actually hold

432
00:22:59,300 --> 00:23:02,800
within them history of technology and

433
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:03,800
there's something

434
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,900
That we sort of had to understand when we talk about technology also

435
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:11,300
talk about knowledge regimes and

436
00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:15,200
understanding how to kind of radicalize knowledge

437
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,400
regimes in terms of how we transfer knowledge

438
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,200
and gain knowledge and

439
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,000
build knowledge and and I was kind of

440
00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:26,600
looking at it through these three knowledge regimes and

441
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:29,500
this is led by this is machine. There

442
00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:32,400
is a philosophy here at my university

443
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,600
in Johannesburg. So he speaks

444
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,600
about three so he speaks about the expert regime or

445
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,300
the institutionalized knowledge regime which is

446
00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:44,200
a system of written and published knowledge in which

447
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,100
Western scholarship is kind of founded and taught and understood the

448
00:23:47,100 --> 00:23:50,500
vernacular with the Southern and so

449
00:23:50,500 --> 00:23:53,800
there's a Bolton is a post-colonial English learning

450
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,200
studies. It's kind of refer to the people that fall out

451
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:58,700
of the expert regime or whatever.

452
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,200
Allowed to be part of that extra machine. So there's

453
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,700
a there's a sort of vernacular and it's a Well to knowledge format

454
00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:08,500
which sits outside of that and then there's the

455
00:24:08,500 --> 00:24:11,400
insurrectionary knowledge regime which is very much I think

456
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,100
by the play of the pools and and the

457
00:24:14,100 --> 00:24:17,200
kind of upending of stuff. She's a term

458
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,300
that's that Christmas was talking about earlier when we're talking

459
00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:23,400
where it's actually is very much an African

460
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,500
knowledge location and mostly because it's I

461
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:29,400
suppose in responsible response to

462
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,800
finding yourself and finding something Beyond and

463
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,300
expert regime and and finding

464
00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:38,900
ways to bring the binocular and expert together

465
00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:42,000
in different ways. And so

466
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:46,300
for me the the vernacular and

467
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:48,600
it's very much also social

468
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:51,100
technology and so the kind of

469
00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:54,600
pre-colonial technique cultures like which is

470
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,600
highly mathematical and very technical in

471
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,300
different ways and almost making

472
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,700
that little bit further and also indigenous systems

473
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:05,800
of knowledge transfer can also be understood algorithmically

474
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:08,200
in account information is passed through

475
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,500
our information is built and you know, which kind of stories

476
00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:14,400
which kind of systems hold that knowledge and if it wasn't in

477
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,500
the extent regime and then also the Insurrection

478
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:20,400
the places where where this work

479
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,500
really sits in Planes.

480
00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:27,600
So I started this

481
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,500
question of vocabulary for vernacular algorithms and

482
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:33,200
the project was really a interaction with

483
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:37,200
two people and a man called and Russell

484
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,600
for wedding who's from kzn, which

485
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:42,600
is possibly going to tell which is the holy land of the people

486
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,400
and also a group of people from a good

487
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:49,300
team and which is somebody there

488
00:25:48,300 --> 00:25:51,400
and in a country

489
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,000
book most week that use a lot of beadwork and

490
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,200
basketry in an extra cultural practices. And what

491
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,700
we started doing was kind of beginning to unpack

492
00:26:00,700 --> 00:26:03,600
using actually Iranians African

493
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,000
factors modern Computing and it just design other kind of

494
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:09,500
basis starting to unpack the history of technology

495
00:26:09,500 --> 00:26:12,900
for suppose young

496
00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:15,200
Africans like pre-colonia. What does that

497
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,600
mean? So one of the things that I did was take my students to

498
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,300
the the museum collection,

499
00:26:21,300 --> 00:26:24,600
so we have a huge in our collection and which

500
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,300
Fortune please actually read through the lens of

501
00:26:27,300 --> 00:26:30,800
African art and very specifically anthropologically LED

502
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,500
African art. So it's kind of looked at

503
00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:36,800
from the kind of an external perspective and

504
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,200
it's not really understood what the artworks which

505
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,500
are often very functional are and in terms of how they

506
00:26:43,500 --> 00:26:46,400
were made and the kind of systems involved in making of them

507
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,300
and unpacking of them. They really looked up as objects and

508
00:26:49,300 --> 00:26:52,400
not as systems. So there's really about bringing the students

509
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,400
into the museum allowing them

510
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,200
to look at those objects to the lens of

511
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,600
vernacular algorithms and the binocular mathematical

512
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,000
systems and and the fact

513
00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:07,800
that mathematics frame of run English and it

514
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,800
is really exciting because it did a couple of things for us

515
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,400
it helped to decolonize the

516
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,900
notion that technical knowledge is only Western and

517
00:27:16,900 --> 00:27:19,600
they are the ways and other philosophies of

518
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,100
technology that exists and that we can

519
00:27:22,100 --> 00:27:24,300
bring to to our understand.

520
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:26,300
of it, and there was also

521
00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:30,300
To understand and this is really just the surface I'd

522
00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:34,800
say they are the really fascinating relationship between technology

523
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,800
and social cultural knowledge

524
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,900
in Africa and how systems and

525
00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:42,300
kind of techno as cultural

526
00:27:42,300 --> 00:27:45,800
systems exist and how they are actually largely egalitarian.

527
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,900
So not material but egalitarian and

528
00:27:48,900 --> 00:27:51,700
then also it brings this knowledge and into

529
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:52,300
a kind of

530
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,200
Contemporary African Computing and digital practices,

531
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,200
you know, there's the students in the room

532
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,300
or engineering students gain students digital art students

533
00:28:02,300 --> 00:28:05,300
and how would they then bring this this philosophy to what they need

534
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:08,500
going forward and how they learned about the world and then

535
00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:11,200
again just to build confidence in young African Learners

536
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,700
at the relevance of their cultures within the technosphere is

537
00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:17,300
actually and that this is a

538
00:28:17,300 --> 00:28:21,100
there's an acknowledgment of the kind of intergenerational relationship

539
00:28:20,100 --> 00:28:23,500
between a grandmother and a daughter and what

540
00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:26,300
she's able to transfer as a technical knowledge and not

541
00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:29,700
just a cultural management. So this is really significant to us

542
00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:30,500
and

543
00:28:31,700 --> 00:28:32,000
the

544
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,200
there's some really lovely examples from my first

545
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,000
group and it was

546
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,900
a really love sharing and the first one is

547
00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:46,800
Screen. Yeah, the first one is a the

548
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,100
believer basket, which is the

549
00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:51,400
food basket from Cameron. So you see the shape there and this

550
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:56,100
is a really really great example of and a

551
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:57,700
geometric algorithm. And

552
00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:01,300
so those are the forms that they were looking at scaling recursion

553
00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:03,900
complexity numerical systems geometric

554
00:29:03,900 --> 00:29:06,400
algorithms and it's an example really great

555
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,000
example of geometric algorithm because it starts as a square moves

556
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:12,900
into your circle and then enter the triangle and you

557
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:15,300
know, just the looking at that from

558
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:19,900
a mathematical perspective is really actually quite complex and leaving

559
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:21,400
practice itself and there's shifting

560
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,400
of colors and the amount of counting and kind of

561
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:25,200
as

562
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:29,600
So thinking you have to do to kind of construct that and which

563
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,800
is very geometric in in all its forms. In fact, and it's

564
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,900
really really beautiful work and it also reflects lubriculture.

565
00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:38,400
So liver culture has a lot of emphasis on

566
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,300
the shifts that happen to one as you grow in life

567
00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:44,100
and how you change from one way of being to another

568
00:29:44,100 --> 00:29:48,300
way of being not only in age but also in and understanding

569
00:29:47,300 --> 00:29:51,000
the world and who you are so there's

570
00:29:50,300 --> 00:29:53,700
a very strong connection between social cultural aspect

571
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:56,900
and the technical aspect and the other

572
00:29:56,900 --> 00:29:59,200
pieces quite close to my heart because it's

573
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,800
an area which I grew up it's and then that's develop

574
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,300
Medical Board medicinal corn. So it's basically a

575
00:30:05,300 --> 00:30:08,700
born you can see it in which medicine is kept

576
00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:11,600
by a spiritual healer and there's

577
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,500
often a lot of work kind of technical work

578
00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:17,300
or algorithmic mathematical work that happens

579
00:30:17,300 --> 00:30:20,800
in the healing space as well. And this piece has

580
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,200
a lot of love with style on it

581
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,200
and so it gets again big

582
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,800
Excellence smaller and it also represents Infinity.

583
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,700
So in when the culture Infinity is really significant

584
00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:35,600
part of how they understand the world and philosophize

585
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,400
in the world and their Spirit.

586
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,500
One of the spirit animals is a crocodile and a snake

587
00:30:41,500 --> 00:30:45,000
and a very common dance is

588
00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:47,500
a kind of coming in Age dance for all young

589
00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:50,200
men and women is called the python dance and there's

590
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,800
a beautiful photograph there of that and which

591
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,500
talks to the kind of infinite Loop of

592
00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:58,000
Being Human and

593
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:02,200
A role that you play in this and so

594
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,200
this is part of a kind of initiation ceremony of growing up as a

595
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,500
woman and in this culture, so they're really

596
00:31:08,500 --> 00:31:11,300
interesting to me and really significant and that link between

597
00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:14,200
the two was really fundamental. So when we started

598
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:17,700
looking at what we call it the vocabulary for vernacular algorithms,

599
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:22,000
we decided to focus specifically on and Zulu

600
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:23,600
need work and to leave

601
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,400
work itself is it's really highly complex very very

602
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,900
mathematical and really recursive and

603
00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:32,500
system orientated in its

604
00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:35,200
making and we started asking a little questions. Like

605
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,800
how can we conflict the mathematical that you geometric

606
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,000
and the experiential because one of

607
00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:44,300
the things that's really significant about me making is that it's

608
00:31:44,300 --> 00:31:47,300
highly influenced by the person who's making it

609
00:31:47,300 --> 00:31:50,200
environment. So they feed into it a

610
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,400
lot of history in terms of like the kinds of plants that

611
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:57,100
are growing around and the kinds of colors that exist at the time and the

612
00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:02,000
There's an influence of like seeing in the world in terms of

613
00:32:02,300 --> 00:32:05,100
what it looks like. But there's also an influence of like who it's being

614
00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:08,300
made for so often beadwork is made for a very

615
00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:12,200
particular reason and there's a very beautiful work of zulu

616
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,200
love letter of a woman. It's got

617
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,300
a series of excess on it and it's a love letter that a

618
00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:20,400
woman made with her fiance to say, please go and find

619
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,900
out from the elders when you're gonna marry and the

620
00:32:23,900 --> 00:32:26,200
exes were actually them out of time. It's just like you've got

621
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,200
three months to do this. So there's a lot

622
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,200
of like a conversational aspect that happened in the need work that

623
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,300
speak to a societies speak to relationships speak to

624
00:32:35,300 --> 00:32:38,400
all kinds of things. So they mix together complex layer

625
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,200
of things. And so this is a

626
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:44,500
question that we kind of throughout and we did all see some workshops

627
00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:47,800
across the continent and really kind of unpacking what

628
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,600
would a vocabulate for vernacular algorithms

629
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,800
be and if we're to bring it and this evolved and

630
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:57,400
kind of rushing along and spend this

631
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,000
evolved into

632
00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,300
Projects which we started running schools in vernacular

633
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:05,500
algorithms and which took that a

634
00:33:05,500 --> 00:33:08,800
little bit further and actually looked at how to really think

635
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,700
about not only the object itself and

636
00:33:11,700 --> 00:33:14,900
what it holds from an algorithmic perspective both

637
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:17,600
in terms of knowledge but also

638
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,900
history and sexual mathematics.

639
00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:23,300
What else is happening there? We kind

640
00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:26,400
of started taking a closer look at how this knowledge

641
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:31,000
is transferred and you know in in salute

642
00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:34,200
communities taught and

643
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,400
shared in a kind of very active

644
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,300
in physical engagement a kind of tech. There's a

645
00:33:39,300 --> 00:33:42,600
kind of Technology sharing that's happening and in

646
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,200
the making of a leader of Peace So the image here

647
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:48,300
is a very beautiful piece by

648
00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:51,500
an artist the policy will do today who's very part of this budget.

649
00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:54,500
So when communities practice being when

650
00:33:54,500 --> 00:33:57,400
they gather in groups to share knowledge and participate in

651
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,200
this year activities, they share

652
00:33:59,300 --> 00:34:02,900
Request generations and there's a communal and

653
00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:05,700
individual and kind of adaptation of

654
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:08,500
skills and Concepts that

655
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:11,500
happens whenever a knowledge is transferred. So it's not set. It's

656
00:34:11,500 --> 00:34:14,500
not set in stone and works. They

657
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:18,000
work together towards a common understanding of Concepts and they

658
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:20,300
also allow for Innovation to happen

659
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:25,300
in that space and there's also a kind of shared decision-making process

660
00:34:23,300 --> 00:34:26,600
that happens there in

661
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,800
terms of what gets put into the beadwork and this is

662
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,300
a response to the social environment the physical

663
00:34:32,300 --> 00:34:35,200
environment. And in many ways. This is

664
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:38,900
a certain social technology and if we go back to and

665
00:34:38,900 --> 00:34:41,900
they and they

666
00:34:41,900 --> 00:34:44,300
then we think about this as a technical

667
00:34:44,300 --> 00:34:47,500
survival within the colonial frame and how knowledge

668
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:50,000
is held in these faith and this is also

669
00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:53,500
why we look at people making as a

670
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:56,600
location for for knowledge and Technical knowledge

671
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,000
systems and we understand it as being largely.

672
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,500
Area of the material and review the space through

673
00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:06,300
that and the beadwork itself is mathematical procedure factor.

674
00:35:05,300 --> 00:35:08,400
And like I said before it holds

675
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,100
so many history and personal experiences inside of it.

676
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,800
So the school and I'm gonna

677
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,400
kind of just jump ahead was really

678
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,200
a focus on Rhythm and Lead work and

679
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,200
creative coding. So we were looking at the three

680
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:26,600
of us involved actually four, but the

681
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,300
other and we ended up not connecting with them because of

682
00:35:29,300 --> 00:35:32,500
covid but until it's a

683
00:35:32,500 --> 00:35:35,500
choreographer and kind of

684
00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:38,300
our own listing things and he was

685
00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:41,400
looking at algorithms that existed in African children songs

686
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,200
and gays which are very procedural and

687
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,200
very systematic and there's it helps to teach with

688
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,600
them it helps to teach and conceptual thinking so we're

689
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:54,100
looking specifically at the question of algorithms and

690
00:35:53,100 --> 00:35:56,100
songs and please see we came with

691
00:35:56,100 --> 00:35:59,400
me making and mathematical skills and it's explaining how

692
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,500
she constructs things but also brings the world into those

693
00:36:02,500 --> 00:36:05,700
spaces and then I was doing a transfer and when

694
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:08,500
we're doing a project in France that's neurons and

695
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:11,200
look taking it into the kind of coding practice.

696
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:15,000
and what it did was to allow us to subvert in

697
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,700
essence and kind of almost decolonized the question

698
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:20,100
of what technical culture is

699
00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:23,600
and how it's what what are algorithms and

700
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,200
you know how algorithms formed and

701
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:29,800
allows us to kind of challenge the existing structure of

702
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,700
algorithmic thinking and

703
00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:35,800
potentially even bringing new systems

704
00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:36,700
of thinking around how

705
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:40,600
The world's algorithms take place and how Computing

706
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,200
and can exist in different ways at the same

707
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,400
time as teaching very technical things to

708
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,900
young people like mathematics encoding and

709
00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:53,000
so highly complicated and then teaching non-western people

710
00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:55,300
where I mean

711
00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:58,300
westernized people who aren't African they can

712
00:36:58,300 --> 00:37:01,700
other kinds of other things. So I did a lot of things at the

713
00:37:01,700 --> 00:37:05,000
same time and that was

714
00:37:04,500 --> 00:37:07,500
me and the school for

715
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:07,900
vernacular.

716
00:37:10,700 --> 00:37:13,300
Thanks. Thanks a lot Tegan. We

717
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,300
thanks a lot. So we do questions

718
00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:21,700
at the end or discussion at the end. So I'm going to pass

719
00:37:21,700 --> 00:37:24,400
over now, I guess

720
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:25,000
to Chris.

721
00:37:27,300 --> 00:37:30,300
Great stuff. I mean it's hardly's a hard acts to

722
00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:32,400
follow right really sharp and smart and

723
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,200
Crikey, John, they make things hard for us. Don't

724
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,300
they but let's have a go at this. Thanks. Everyone really great. Thanks

725
00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:42,400
for inviting me along the course. It's a really interesting this panel.

726
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,200
It's so rare you get a chance to share internationally and

727
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,100
so convivly so let me have a go

728
00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:51,600
at this and let me turn that on there.

729
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:54,100
How's that? Can you see that? Yes.

730
00:37:55,300 --> 00:37:58,200
Okay, super right. Let's have a go at this. So I'm I put the

731
00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,600
timer on as well. Hang on.

732
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,600
You look so I'm based in Edinburgh. You can tell I'm not Scottish, but

733
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:07,200
don't blame me. It was a circumstances, but

734
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,000
I'm

735
00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:11,600
yeah, a couple of hats and

736
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,600
developed something with John Vines a

737
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,800
whole bunch of people are called design informatics designers working

738
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,200
with and alongside colleagues in the school of informatics publishing

739
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,500
in Kai HCI, but also designed

740
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:26,600
through drf and always trying to think about the interface between

741
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,400
Making cultures where in which the analog might

742
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,300
be wood metal Ceramics and Plastics along with

743
00:38:33,300 --> 00:38:37,000
the cultures and products and services that people informatics and

744
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:39,700
machining are exploring

745
00:38:39,700 --> 00:38:42,300
and yeah really fascinating to rip off

746
00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:46,500
both of these talks so far around representations of

747
00:38:45,500 --> 00:38:49,300
perhaps cutesian views

748
00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:51,100
of the world through to being living in the

749
00:38:51,100 --> 00:38:54,600
world and doing things and then of course about the cultures which are

750
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,400
deeply in inscribed within places and

751
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,800
spaces and people's and then have become dominant

752
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,200
according perhaps to West Coast America when we

753
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,400
think about technology. I'm sure the UK's got

754
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,700
lots to answer for in terms of propagating certain

755
00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:12,300
algorithms as well Teague. And so I'm deeply conscious

756
00:39:12,300 --> 00:39:15,600
that I'm speaking from a position in the

757
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,200
global North where Enlightenment was born.

758
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,100
I mean apologies for that. It's something that

759
00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:24,300
gets trotted out in Edinburgh an awful lot and we're doing everything we can

760
00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:27,300
too upend that power position.

761
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,400
So look something I'm going to speak to is economic imaginaries.

762
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,600
So the systems I'm fascinated with

763
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,300
a month many systems are systems in

764
00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:37,800
which value emerges.

765
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,800
And there's a whole bunch of conversations around

766
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:45,400
design being part of the co-creation of

767
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,500
things and when I think about the co-creation usually

768
00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:50,200
it's not the co-design of

769
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,600
a thing be it a product or a service or a

770
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:56,800
participatory process. It's before the

771
00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:59,300
co-design we have to talk about the co-creation and

772
00:39:59,300 --> 00:40:02,900
really it's the co-creation for me around value and

773
00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:05,200
the co-creation of value becomes because we

774
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,500
intermingle we share we take part in bringing forward

775
00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:09,400
certain values.

776
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,800
You might suggest that this today's Zoom panel

777
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,600
is really the co-creation of a

778
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,700
series of forms of value. But because that's predicated on

779
00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:22,100
four Scholars bring forward a series

780
00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:26,200
of values. Of course, we're talking about how we represent play

781
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,700
Within systems that relates

782
00:40:28,700 --> 00:40:31,800
to the broader conference, but it's in convening

783
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,400
and co-creation questions of value. Now that

784
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:38,300
might be social environmental political philosophical maker.

785
00:40:37,300 --> 00:40:40,300
Whatever it is. It's up for

786
00:40:40,300 --> 00:40:43,500
the audience really to lean in and understand what you want to take away

787
00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:44,700
is what was valuable from this

788
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,500
but I'm interested in the moment particularly systems of

789
00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:51,400
money systems of value as we enter

790
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,600
a living a cost of living crisis.

791
00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,600
That's how it's Being Framed in the UK and that

792
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,300
with events out with many of our control

793
00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:02,400
your

794
00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:06,100
Your access to how can I

795
00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:09,800
put this your ability to pay for things is going to be under duress

796
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,200
many of us might be quite privileged on this

797
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,300
call. There are many people not having time to attend

798
00:41:15,300 --> 00:41:18,300
this call. We're actually attending this call will

799
00:41:18,300 --> 00:41:21,200
be an extreme privilege. So questions of value and

800
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,200
representations of value. I'm always fascinated with because there is

801
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,100
a dominant representation of value in the form of

802
00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:27,400
money.

803
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,500
Are the artist and creatives of working hard for years

804
00:41:31,500 --> 00:41:34,900
to try to think about how we upend that

805
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:36,400
representation of value?

806
00:41:37,100 --> 00:41:40,700
So a few years now, we've been working in design informatics about what

807
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:43,600
happens. If we do change the representation of

808
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,200
value particularly away from a dominant form

809
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,600
of being money into perhaps thinking about social Environmental.

810
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:53,700
cultural forms, but particularly

811
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,400
how we think about how that then becomes challenged about the

812
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,300
values that we bring forward. So the question today is

813
00:42:01,300 --> 00:42:04,500
if you change the representation of value away from

814
00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:04,700
money.

815
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,300
Into different manifestations. Can you change

816
00:42:08,300 --> 00:42:11,300
the values that you can represent? And what is the limitation of

817
00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:15,100
money to misrepresent different communities

818
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:17,500
cultures? So on

819
00:42:17,500 --> 00:42:20,500
and so forth. So that's I'll come back to what I'm

820
00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:23,300
fascinated with and doing is this question around what

821
00:42:23,300 --> 00:42:26,500
economic imaginaries are is this in the UK and

822
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:29,200
a dominant economic imaginary event in which

823
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,100
the representation of value is money and

824
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,300
that's okay as well. I don't think there's a get-out

825
00:42:37,300 --> 00:42:40,300
clause for designers or creatives. I think we have to face this

826
00:42:40,300 --> 00:42:44,000
down right that I'm if the Daily Mail talks about

827
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,800
value and good value. They'll probably

828
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:47,700
talk about cheapness.

829
00:42:48,500 --> 00:42:51,700
They'll probably bring things that are good value Burger

830
00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:54,800
is a cheap one a good value bus

831
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,000
ride is a good one that's cheap. Now many

832
00:42:57,100 --> 00:43:00,500
of us have also flipping that on its head through if

833
00:43:00,500 --> 00:43:03,100
you rethink about how what the values we

834
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:06,300
bring to questions of value. Then we have to increasingly take

835
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:09,200
on board much ground narratives much

836
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:11,400
longer narratives such as the climate crisis.

837
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,000
But let me just dive into economic imaginaries and I do

838
00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:18,100
think Jessup does a great job. This is a video and I can pass

839
00:43:18,100 --> 00:43:21,300
this around later and really unpacking what an

840
00:43:21,300 --> 00:43:24,900
economic imaginary might be. So economic imaginaries, assuming

841
00:43:24,900 --> 00:43:27,100
that we've left behind a high idea of

842
00:43:27,100 --> 00:43:30,600
an economic ideology that actually we're caught

843
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,000
up in very very complicated social environmental cultural

844
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,100
circumstances in which it's no longer

845
00:43:36,100 --> 00:43:40,100
possible to force and drive an ideology and

846
00:43:39,100 --> 00:43:42,100
economic ideology and may well

847
00:43:42,100 --> 00:43:45,700
have come from America, but actually and I say USA

848
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:48,000
rather than South America, but actually in the

849
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,600
context of what we're talking about. I think we're all interested in

850
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,600
bringing forward things on the left which are

851
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,200
as Jessup talks about it's the sense and meaning making

852
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,800
all of you will have come to today whether you're

853
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:03,400
in different places because you may well have

854
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,400
spent some money and how you spent that money how

855
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,600
you made sense of that meaning making within an

856
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,100
economic system. Maybe some of you could afford

857
00:44:12,100 --> 00:44:16,300
Get on the bus. Some of you are lucky enough to stay at home. Some of

858
00:44:16,300 --> 00:44:20,200
you may well have caught a taxi to wherever you're going today your sense

859
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,200
and meaning making with your ability to engage in

860
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,900
the world with your capacity to spend this stuff.

861
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:28,500
We call money will have had a difference. It's a

862
00:44:28,500 --> 00:44:31,100
sense in making meaning making relationship. Some of

863
00:44:31,100 --> 00:44:34,300
you don't have the capacity to get on a taxi this

864
00:44:34,300 --> 00:44:37,500
morning. Some of you probably don't have private helicopters is my

865
00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:40,200
guess but some of you may well be relying on

866
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,200
public transport. So the sense and meaning making of how

867
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,400
we use money is vital in part to

868
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:49,200
how we understand our economic imaginary on the

869
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:53,400
other side. Yes, that will also talk about the structuration

870
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,800
the abstraction that informs your

871
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,500
imaginary the idea of what becomes

872
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,700
Why haven't you got personal helicopter? Maybe

873
00:45:01,700 --> 00:45:04,400
you would never dream if everyone but why haven't you

874
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:08,100
got access to a taxi? Why do you perhaps use

875
00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:10,400
Ubers when you know, that's a challenging moral

876
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:13,700
conundrum a new prefer to use local cabs.

877
00:45:13,700 --> 00:45:16,400
What's going on at a big scale in your

878
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,700
culture and Society but then informs why

879
00:45:19,700 --> 00:45:22,800
you have more or less money to

880
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:25,500
allow you to do certain things. So one

881
00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:28,000
is an abstraction in the

882
00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:31,500
UK. We went through recently the death of a monarch

883
00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:35,100
evoked a whole bunch of questions in the economic imaginary

884
00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:37,500
of I haven't got access to the

885
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:40,400
scale of funds. I haven't got access to an army

886
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,700
for my funeral. I've got a whole bunch of questions in

887
00:45:43,700 --> 00:45:46,500
the abstraction again minor position from an

888
00:45:46,500 --> 00:45:50,000
English guy in Scotland working in the UK on

889
00:45:49,100 --> 00:45:52,600
the other hand again, we take back to the sense of

890
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,200
meaning-making. So he places do to these two things

891
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:58,400
in contention and then makes an

892
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:02,000
Of what our imaginary is around? What is compatible? What

893
00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:04,700
is based on the sedimenting meaning of a years

894
00:46:04,700 --> 00:46:08,300
of using money according to my position

895
00:46:07,300 --> 00:46:10,800
in the world to some other structured

896
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:13,400
complexity of how I understand the world moving through growing

897
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:16,500
up through factorism into new labor

898
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:19,300
and then back out into another Tory government

899
00:46:19,300 --> 00:46:21,800
right government at my end.

900
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,900
so that then becomes compatible that might be my economic imaginary

901
00:46:25,900 --> 00:46:28,300
if I then think then

902
00:46:28,900 --> 00:46:31,300
of what we're trying to do to upend and to

903
00:46:31,300 --> 00:46:34,800
play Within those systems. Well design informatics is

904
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,700
very interested in this proposition, but actually

905
00:46:37,700 --> 00:46:41,000
something is taking place when we think about representations of

906
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,900
value that it's already moving beyond concepts

907
00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:47,700
of money that actually much of

908
00:46:47,700 --> 00:46:50,200
your value being created through the last

909
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,800
few years isn't taking place through cash. It may

910
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,100
well be taking place through these Square devices

911
00:46:56,100 --> 00:46:59,300
in which people are starting to pay

912
00:46:59,300 --> 00:47:02,200
only with credit cards, perhaps it's done when

913
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:06,000
you use your your device as the as

914
00:47:05,300 --> 00:47:08,500
a card and actually we begin

915
00:47:08,500 --> 00:47:11,400
to offer this proposition to you that something is taking place

916
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:11,700
where

917
00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:14,800
banks are not holding your money folks.

918
00:47:16,300 --> 00:47:17,600
Banks are holding your data.

919
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,800
And this is an upending. This is a play a playful

920
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:24,500
way of beginning to rethink about the imaginaries that

921
00:47:24,500 --> 00:47:28,200
rather like Claudia antigen

922
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,600
are presenting but there's a whole bunch of cultures taking place

923
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,100
ours is more challenging it. Well, I think

924
00:47:33,100 --> 00:47:36,200
it challenge because there's no defense of money here because all of

925
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,400
your bank accounts are holding probably more personal information

926
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:42,600
or personal informatics than

927
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,800
any of your your fitbits your

928
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,600
Apple devices your Google devices because actually

929
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:52,300
your Banks hold more information about you personally individually,

930
00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:54,600
perhaps even in shared bank accounts than

931
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,600
anybody else in any ecosystem

932
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:00,700
ever. Somebody you're most intimate

933
00:48:00,700 --> 00:48:04,500
activities are held within your bank account Banks

934
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:06,600
aren't regulated thankfully or regulated

935
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,600
thankfully to not release or share that data. But if

936
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,600
you imagine what Google will do if Google took your

937
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:17,600
personal informatic activity that you've been listing for

938
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:18,500
years possibly.

939
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,800
All of your life and what they would do it with the artists

940
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,500
you can imagine some of the digital economies that

941
00:48:24,500 --> 00:48:27,400
we might be facing but conversely we haven't got that we've

942
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,500
got Banks now having said that we're about to face some regulation

943
00:48:30,500 --> 00:48:33,200
that does change this proposition. But in

944
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,600
the UK in Europe, we're now inviting third parties

945
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,400
into our bank accounts to identify certain

946
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:43,100
forms of value just aware of my time Claudia and

947
00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:45,700
I'll just speed up a little bit. So I'm fascinated in

948
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:48,700
the 20th century how we constructive economic imaginaries

949
00:48:48,700 --> 00:48:51,600
or ideologies and how the digital economy

950
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,500
through beginning to co-create value in

951
00:48:54,500 --> 00:48:57,900
different ways by searching Google by writing

952
00:48:57,900 --> 00:49:00,300
into bank accounts. Now, we're beginning to

953
00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:03,300
find and we have some transgressive plays. I was

954
00:49:03,300 --> 00:49:06,300
going to show you. Well, actually we end up value creation at

955
00:49:06,300 --> 00:49:09,800
the end of the 20th century manifest in objects. Actually what's

956
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,400
beginning to happen is that these old value chains

957
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:15,500
which are very linear being placed

958
00:49:15,500 --> 00:49:17,700
into what we call Value constellations.

959
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,300
And so we begin to see in this little District diagram of

960
00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:24,600
how the Google system works is that you're actually your

961
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,600
data when you work with a company is being handed

962
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:30,600
off all the time to third parties and in

963
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:33,300
doing so being machined by many many

964
00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:36,500
ai's and many other third parties which then

965
00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:39,200
present huge problems with leaky data

966
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,500
leaky personal informatics, which present huge problems

967
00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:45,300
in the context of what you believe to

968
00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:48,400
be the representation of value. And as I

969
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,400
come back to this question if you change the representation of value then

970
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:52,200
from money.

971
00:49:53,700 --> 00:49:56,600
Into digital economies into Data than wow.

972
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,500
Can you change the values that you could represent or are

973
00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:02,300
they in fact under threat. Now? What I was going to jump to now

974
00:50:02,300 --> 00:50:05,400
is just a throwing a little bit of theory. So what we try

975
00:50:05,400 --> 00:50:08,900
and do in designs informatics is used designed to perform agential

976
00:50:08,900 --> 00:50:11,600
Cuts. So our play methodology our

977
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:15,000
tactic for play is very much to perform cuts across

978
00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:17,600
many of these systems. I won't

979
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:20,400
dwell on the thesis. But what we find is then how

980
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,100
can the creatives the artist the designers? I work

981
00:50:23,100 --> 00:50:24,300
with perform cuts.

982
00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:28,300
Cross digital economies such as Google to then

983
00:50:28,300 --> 00:50:31,600
ask and reveal moral ethical

984
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:34,500
insights, which you might fail might find as

985
00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:37,400
compromising or find Opportunities and just two

986
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,300
examples of that. We've been working very much

987
00:50:40,300 --> 00:50:44,300
in the space of smart contracts using blockchain.

988
00:50:43,300 --> 00:50:46,300
So here what you can see is

989
00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:49,400
Jonathan's put one pound coin inside this

990
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:50,800
strange seesaw.

991
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:54,500
The device is actually connected to the internet and when he

992
00:50:54,500 --> 00:50:57,800
presses the button on the right what he's doing is initiating a

993
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,700
smart contract if there's an earthquake anywhere

994
00:51:00,700 --> 00:51:03,600
on the planet within the next five minutes, then

995
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,400
we will give your money to Oxfam and

996
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,400
the Cog will turn to the right if there isn't an event

997
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:12,500
in the world on earthquake then we will you

998
00:51:12,500 --> 00:51:15,100
will get your money back and you will have the chance to give your money

999
00:51:15,100 --> 00:51:18,500
directly to Oxfam through the hole in the right or you

1000
00:51:18,500 --> 00:51:21,400
can take it away. Now, these are simple smart contracts and

1001
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:22,500
we've been working with them.

1002
00:51:23,300 --> 00:51:26,600
Oxfam now to develop these into an

1003
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,200
application which is launched in for some reason.

1004
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,200
I don't know why it could have been in the UK. It happens

1005
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,900
to be in Australia. So now we're finding that people are downloading

1006
00:51:35,900 --> 00:51:38,800
an app and they're giving money to Oxfam but

1007
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,900
they're giving it based on entirely conditional circumstances.

1008
00:51:41,900 --> 00:51:44,900
If there's an earthquake in the world, then release

1009
00:51:44,900 --> 00:51:47,300
funds from this particular bank account.

1010
00:51:47,300 --> 00:51:50,800
So again, if I change the representation of value from

1011
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,400
something that is somebody demanding money from

1012
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,500
me into a condition in which a data

1013
00:51:56,500 --> 00:52:00,200
triggers because of an environmental circumstance in

1014
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:02,400
the world, then does that change the

1015
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,300
representations of value for ox sound. They're finding

1016
00:52:05,300 --> 00:52:08,600
that actually the trust framework rather than Oxfam saying

1017
00:52:08,600 --> 00:52:11,000
that there's a circumstance in the world

1018
00:52:11,500 --> 00:52:14,700
and we were offer marketing actually the sensor

1019
00:52:14,700 --> 00:52:17,400
tells us that there's a problem then actually

1020
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,900
then people are more trustworthy. They give them money converter for

1021
00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:22,800
the also in Australia if a right-wing

1022
00:52:23,500 --> 00:52:27,100
Politician tweets disparagally disparagingly

1023
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:29,500
around refugees then. Let's

1024
00:52:29,500 --> 00:52:32,300
put the money out. So we've been doing it with an

1025
00:52:32,300 --> 00:52:35,500
oxide various waves. In fact more recently. We're doing it with the

1026
00:52:35,500 --> 00:52:38,500
coal. They've got the some of the biggest coal exports

1027
00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:41,300
from Australia. So every time

1028
00:52:41,300 --> 00:52:44,200
this these ships leave Newcastle, they're actually

1029
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:47,900
people are passing back money to kind of offset carbon.

1030
00:52:47,900 --> 00:52:50,400
Now, the last thing I'm going to show you is where we try to

1031
00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,400
again contravene in these imaginaries the idea that

1032
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,200
your bank accounts are also data sets. I was

1033
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,000
going to give you a live demo, but I'm gonna speed up and just show

1034
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:02,400
you the last piece of work what we've been doing in this

1035
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,400
small video here. Let me just get it going. It's trying

1036
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,100
to write into your bank accounts. So we demoed this in

1037
00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:11,300
And build out DRS what's happened?

1038
00:53:11,300 --> 00:53:14,900
There is someone's tapped the strict little square device and

1039
00:53:14,900 --> 00:53:17,400
on the right what you'll find is a visualization

1040
00:53:17,400 --> 00:53:20,500
a live data feed and you'll see that they're bank account

1041
00:53:20,500 --> 00:53:23,100
has just taken a pound off them.

1042
00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:26,900
But if somebody Tweets in the world with

1043
00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:29,000
the hashtag climate action, then we will

1044
00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:32,600
refund them. So those two transactions are waiting

1045
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:36,000
in the queue for people to do good in the world and now

1046
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:39,000
we're passing their money back to them. So essentially

1047
00:53:38,300 --> 00:53:41,400
we're money laundering we're taking money off

1048
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,400
people and we're actually writing money

1049
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:47,300
writing value back into the bank account. So

1050
00:53:47,300 --> 00:53:51,000
I'll just show you my bank account here after I've been washing my

1051
00:53:50,300 --> 00:53:53,500
money. I was doing it in Europe and you'll

1052
00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:56,400
see that I've been washing money at the top there

1053
00:53:56,400 --> 00:54:00,300
and the climate action is leaving and someone

1054
00:53:59,300 --> 00:54:02,500
else's action in the world back into

1055
00:54:02,500 --> 00:54:05,400
my bank account. So it's a reverse money laundering really

1056
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,800
it's washing ecological values into my

1057
00:54:08,900 --> 00:54:11,200
account and it asks you and I the question of

1058
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,800
what is going on in a bank accounts, if the representation of

1059
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,800
value shifts from money into

1060
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,400
beginning to talk about environmental social

1061
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,500
values. I'll stop there just to give us some time but

1062
00:54:23,500 --> 00:54:26,200
I hope that makes sense

1063
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:29,700
and demonstrates the idea of play that we're performing in

1064
00:54:29,700 --> 00:54:30,200
Edinburgh around

1065
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,000
Yeah economic imaginaries. Thanks.

1066
00:54:35,500 --> 00:54:38,900
Great. Thanks a lot Chris. That was

1067
00:54:38,900 --> 00:54:41,800
excellent also, and I

1068
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:43,900
pass on to yanis.

1069
00:54:45,900 --> 00:54:49,000
Hi, hi, these were fascinating presentations

1070
00:54:48,300 --> 00:54:51,200
and I I am here

1071
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,700
with an artistic project. So we go from the

1072
00:54:54,700 --> 00:54:58,400
economic imaginaries the mathematical applications

1073
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:02,100
that waiting for Globes to

1074
00:55:03,100 --> 00:55:06,600
to something that was conceived During the period of the pandemic and

1075
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,100
I'll share my screen.

1076
00:55:09,900 --> 00:55:12,200
And is a playful.

1077
00:55:13,900 --> 00:55:15,600
oops

1078
00:55:17,800 --> 00:55:18,600
Can you see my screen?

1079
00:55:21,300 --> 00:55:24,700
Yes, okay. So yes, let me

1080
00:55:24,700 --> 00:55:27,800
see the but now it's not full screen. We see

1081
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,700
your slides on the side. Yeah, I know

1082
00:55:30,700 --> 00:55:31,800
find the

1083
00:55:33,400 --> 00:55:34,400
play button.

1084
00:55:41,700 --> 00:55:43,600
here so

1085
00:55:44,500 --> 00:55:45,300
It's okay now.

1086
00:55:45,700 --> 00:55:49,000
Yes, okay. So the whole idea started

1087
00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:51,400
by a contemplation of

1088
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:55,300
of space and and

1089
00:55:54,300 --> 00:55:58,900
and and and this this idea

1090
00:55:57,900 --> 00:56:00,000
revolve around

1091
00:56:00,600 --> 00:56:05,400
playing playing with analogies and metaphors I

1092
00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:07,100
come from Greece have

1093
00:56:06,100 --> 00:56:09,500
been in between

1094
00:56:09,500 --> 00:56:12,400
two spaces a mathematical space and an artistic space

1095
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,400
and and these metaphors

1096
00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:20,000
were always my rules

1097
00:56:19,700 --> 00:56:22,800
into creating any artistic or

1098
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:24,100
aesthetic experience.

1099
00:56:25,700 --> 00:56:28,400
So the whole idea was trying to

1100
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:32,100
create something that relates

1101
00:56:31,100 --> 00:56:33,800
artists with space.

1102
00:56:36,500 --> 00:56:39,800
We didn't have time to evolve it a lot because suddenly

1103
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:43,400
the pandemic happened and I

1104
00:56:42,400 --> 00:56:45,300
was stuck in

1105
00:56:45,300 --> 00:56:46,800
space in Paris.

1106
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,800
And my friend irini suryavaki

1107
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,300
who was in Zurich was stuck in Zurich

1108
00:56:53,300 --> 00:56:57,500
not meet to proceed. These are projects

1109
00:56:56,500 --> 00:56:59,700
related space and Arsenal.

1110
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:03,800
So we decided to evolve it into creating this ontology of

1111
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:04,600
of.

1112
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,200
The the Paradigm of the

1113
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,500
astronaut artist and we were isolated. I

1114
00:57:12,500 --> 00:57:15,500
was in the sixth floor in an apartment in Paris. She was in

1115
00:57:15,500 --> 00:57:18,700
the sixth floor in an apartment in Zurich

1116
00:57:18,700 --> 00:57:22,200
and we could not leave our our stations. So

1117
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:25,200
we have to travel through these patients in order to

1118
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:28,700
be able to do our activities or art

1119
00:57:28,700 --> 00:57:31,400
events or art poetic creations.

1120
00:57:32,200 --> 00:57:35,400
So we we're based in

1121
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:39,000
the creation of that system and going back system.

1122
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,400
In Greek can be a system.

1123
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:46,700
It's a loan from the friendship.

1124
00:57:47,500 --> 00:57:51,100
But the the original elements is

1125
00:57:50,100 --> 00:57:53,400
seen and Eastern which will

1126
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:54,500
stand together and

1127
00:57:55,300 --> 00:57:59,000
In the same, we'll see mistosa reflects to

1128
00:57:58,300 --> 00:58:01,100
the coordinates. So we started

1129
00:58:01,100 --> 00:58:05,100
creating system coordinates for the spatial and

1130
00:58:05,100 --> 00:58:07,500
astronautic arts.

1131
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,100
So we create we created this system with an

1132
00:58:11,100 --> 00:58:14,400
environment and core black

1133
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:18,500
box of decision making and the skin radius in

1134
00:58:17,500 --> 00:58:21,000
order to create this kind of metaphors and

1135
00:58:20,900 --> 00:58:23,900
analogies between anything that

1136
00:58:23,900 --> 00:58:27,900
is a technological speculative physical

1137
00:58:27,900 --> 00:58:30,700
digital or mental and

1138
00:58:30,700 --> 00:58:35,600
anything that is the application anything

1139
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:38,100
that is related to

1140
00:58:38,100 --> 00:58:39,000
the artistic events.

1141
00:58:42,300 --> 00:58:45,600
So we started creating the whole structure. There's

1142
00:58:45,600 --> 00:58:48,600
also mathematical theory behind

1143
00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:51,400
that which is kind of valid. It is related

1144
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:55,100
to categories Theory. So it's a bit like super abstract and

1145
00:58:54,100 --> 00:58:57,800
valid even after so we

1146
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:01,200
kind of cheated there and and

1147
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:03,500
that that theory supports the connection and

1148
00:59:03,500 --> 00:59:06,900
the relationship between two different astronauts a

1149
00:59:06,900 --> 00:59:10,300
lot of me with a distance and traveling and

1150
00:59:09,300 --> 00:59:12,600
Direction and also a

1151
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:16,700
navigation chart navigational chart and also the Sith

1152
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,200
And for us into that environment,

1153
00:59:20,200 --> 00:59:23,700
especially in that technological environment

1154
00:59:23,700 --> 00:59:27,100
of multiple devices applications and

1155
00:59:26,100 --> 00:59:29,900
phones computers laptops

1156
00:59:29,900 --> 00:59:33,300
at same time. We propose

1157
00:59:32,300 --> 00:59:35,400
that the self is moved. Also. This

1158
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:40,200
is a really ask about approach and influence.

1159
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:41,800
So the

1160
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:46,900
self is presented as a multiplication different elements.

1161
00:59:45,900 --> 00:59:49,900
And we we

1162
00:59:48,900 --> 00:59:51,500
applied the whole concept of

1163
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:54,800
this arson of artists. So me and Iranian

1164
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:58,400
at the same time of artists were meeting in

1165
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,600
order to do a presentation

1166
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,600
and the performance of the hobnet

1167
01:00:03,600 --> 01:00:06,200
machine from 100 Miller, which is

1168
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:09,300
also very playful play and this is the second

1169
01:00:09,300 --> 01:00:14,400
order joke here, but it's playful play is based

1170
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,800
on the translation from wheelers into

1171
01:00:19,100 --> 01:00:22,400
Shakespearean and it has been presented many times

1172
01:00:22,400 --> 01:00:25,600
very many self-referential elements like the

1173
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,100
elements and the plot is

1174
01:00:28,100 --> 01:00:31,100
very chaotic, but it doesn't have

1175
01:00:31,100 --> 01:00:34,300
a structured. It had doesn't have

1176
01:00:34,300 --> 01:00:37,600
a strategy but it has a structure and that strategy

1177
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,200
and structure and religion the results really the

1178
01:00:42,100 --> 01:00:45,400
combination of lots and monologues is

1179
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:46,900
no traditional in that sense.

1180
01:00:47,900 --> 01:00:50,700
Also, we through that

1181
01:00:50,700 --> 01:00:54,200
through that combination like the spaceships the

1182
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:56,800
afternoon of the metaphors and then and

1183
01:00:56,800 --> 01:00:59,400
the height machine we created

1184
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:02,300
the kind of universe within which we tried to create

1185
01:01:02,300 --> 01:01:05,000
these performance. I will show you a bit later.

1186
01:01:05,900 --> 01:01:08,300
We created analogies and metaphors. Right? So there's

1187
01:01:08,300 --> 01:01:12,100
a the interface of the afternoon and interface of

1188
01:01:11,100 --> 01:01:14,400
the multiple device that generate that

1189
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:18,400
itself. We created a lot of power meetings

1190
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,500
discussion using all of our

1191
01:01:20,500 --> 01:01:24,900
account like from Instagram Viber WhatsApp, which

1192
01:01:24,900 --> 01:01:27,400
are Facebook everything together at the

1193
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,300
same time to create this kind of at least as an example

1194
01:01:30,300 --> 01:01:32,100
and then no one expected like

1195
01:01:34,300 --> 01:01:37,600
So we created these spaces were

1196
01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,500
transportation is in times is it is

1197
01:01:40,500 --> 01:01:43,600
sent through a

1198
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:46,700
morphism of this is the categorical approach to

1199
01:01:46,700 --> 01:01:49,900
metaphors and the variations of ready between

1200
01:01:49,900 --> 01:01:52,700
the artists in consonant ideas and their

1201
01:01:52,700 --> 01:01:54,900
experience are the benefits of the linear time, right?

1202
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:55,700
and

1203
01:01:57,300 --> 01:02:00,800
Similarly, we created a pyramid of needs in

1204
01:02:00,800 --> 01:02:04,000
analogy Masters. Once with other astronautic

1205
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:06,400
arguments were we do need isolation. We

1206
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,800
didn't the station a communication substrate and

1207
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,500
the further technology in order

1208
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:14,500
to proceed the many cells.

1209
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,900
and and we managed

1210
01:02:18,900 --> 01:02:22,600
to gather a lot of data from from

1211
01:02:24,700 --> 01:02:28,400
object in space. One of them is called Ophelia 171

1212
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:30,500
and we use that as an

1213
01:02:30,500 --> 01:02:30,900
example to

1214
01:02:31,700 --> 01:02:32,800
Create that connection with.

1215
01:02:33,800 --> 01:02:36,800
Hamlet affiliate also very famous for

1216
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,400
her tragic history in Hamlet where

1217
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:45,100
eventually you should drown after becoming insane because

1218
01:02:44,100 --> 01:02:45,900
of Hamlet.

1219
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:49,300
So we played with that Insanity as

1220
01:02:49,300 --> 01:02:52,700
well with all these multiplications as you can see on the

1221
01:02:52,700 --> 01:02:55,600
right with them different inputs of

1222
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:56,100
communication.

1223
01:02:58,100 --> 01:03:03,000
So eventually we gathered all

1224
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:06,600
the text translated automatically in Skype

1225
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,400
from Greek to

1226
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:12,700
English which created the total paradoxical narrative

1227
01:03:11,700 --> 01:03:15,600
and we were still

1228
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,800
working on that text as well. We use that as

1229
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:21,100
part of the storytelling stuff with you

1230
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:22,600
within

1231
01:03:23,100 --> 01:03:26,400
and I'll show you a few things now. Let me

1232
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:29,500
know if you can hear. Maybe I need

1233
01:03:29,500 --> 01:03:29,800
to.

1234
01:03:36,300 --> 01:03:36,700
Can you hear the sound?

1235
01:03:40,500 --> 01:03:43,400
Remember no, but is it playing

1236
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,400
Let me let me share again with some.

1237
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:55,200
and I'll pass a bit fast to the

1238
01:03:58,200 --> 01:04:01,800
Wouldn't have too much time. I want to go here the definition

1239
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:02,500
right here.

1240
01:04:04,200 --> 01:04:08,300
So we kind of like formulated definition is enough.

1241
01:04:12,700 --> 01:04:16,300
And I mean we discovered stars and

1242
01:04:15,300 --> 01:04:17,900
we created all these.

1243
01:04:18,700 --> 01:04:20,500
connections with

1244
01:04:23,500 --> 01:04:24,900
the person who's not

1245
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:37,100
and eventually I'll sharing some part and become so

1246
01:04:36,100 --> 01:04:38,000
able to

1247
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:40,900
of the performance. Let me see.

1248
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:48,300
And eventually all of the all of the elements were combined into

1249
01:04:47,300 --> 01:04:50,200
a system that was playing all over the

1250
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:52,800
data at the same time and that eventually could lead the video.

1251
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:58,000
in total is about 15 minutes, or I'm not

1252
01:04:58,300 --> 01:05:01,300
gonna show you now, but I can show you some parts of

1253
01:05:01,300 --> 01:05:01,500
the

1254
01:05:02,700 --> 01:05:05,900
moments where we are reading the text.

1255
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,500
in a computer review

1256
01:05:17,700 --> 01:05:20,500
All positive paraphero and I'm continuing

1257
01:05:20,500 --> 01:05:24,600
it doesn't have to come too much. This is the so

1258
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:27,700
we use the number 171 because

1259
01:05:27,700 --> 01:05:30,200
it's related to the meteorite called

1260
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:34,400
the one. Okay, so I'm gonna stop the early one.

1261
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:35,400
Oops.

1262
01:05:36,100 --> 01:05:39,400
So I just don't wrap this thing up because I know that we

1263
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:43,400
don't have too much time and I was trying to quickly package everything

1264
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,400
under 10 minutes. The whole

1265
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:50,500
idea was to play with these functions. It's

1266
01:05:49,500 --> 01:05:52,400
morphisms between different spaces and

1267
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:55,600
different concept. Right? So the one one Concepts the

1268
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,600
physical space the other one is the speculative space.

1269
01:05:58,600 --> 01:06:01,700
The other one is a subjective space and we're created

1270
01:06:01,700 --> 01:06:04,100
all these connections between them in order to

1271
01:06:04,100 --> 01:06:08,800
find out how these poetic process

1272
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:11,500
of artistic art after enough

1273
01:06:11,500 --> 01:06:13,800
or could be explained.

1274
01:06:14,500 --> 01:06:17,100
So I think it was a yeah

1275
01:06:17,100 --> 01:06:20,800
a manifestation of playfulness.

1276
01:06:24,300 --> 01:06:28,300
Right. Thanks a lot, Janice and everyone

1277
01:06:27,300 --> 01:06:31,300
for the presentations. We

1278
01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:33,700
all we included

1279
01:06:33,700 --> 01:06:36,500
took longer than planned. But so

1280
01:06:36,500 --> 01:06:40,300
now we don't have as much time for the discussion

1281
01:06:39,300 --> 01:06:42,000
as we thought but

1282
01:06:44,900 --> 01:06:46,400
I think so we

1283
01:06:47,900 --> 01:06:50,500
Whoever has questions, please either write

1284
01:06:50,500 --> 01:06:53,600
them in the chat or you can just unmute your

1285
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:57,100
microphone as long as there's no question.

1286
01:06:56,100 --> 01:06:58,000
Yeah.

1287
01:06:59,300 --> 01:07:03,000
Coming forward. I'm just going to continue the

1288
01:07:02,400 --> 01:07:04,600
discussion Among Us.

1289
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:09,000
So for me, it's quite interesting to think

1290
01:07:08,400 --> 01:07:11,800
about this notion of play also

1291
01:07:11,800 --> 01:07:12,300
and

1292
01:07:14,400 --> 01:07:17,700
We all have a background in art

1293
01:07:17,700 --> 01:07:20,600
but we also all of

1294
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:25,100
us kind of often past that

1295
01:07:24,100 --> 01:07:28,000
threshold into design and is

1296
01:07:27,900 --> 01:07:30,500
that notion of play actually,

1297
01:07:30,500 --> 01:07:33,400
is that something is there a different notion of

1298
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:37,400
play in art or what do we is there

1299
01:07:37,400 --> 01:07:40,000
something we learned from art that we kind of

1300
01:07:40,100 --> 01:07:44,400
apply in design maybe that that

1301
01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:47,100
is something that kind to my mind while I was

1302
01:07:47,100 --> 01:07:50,900
looking at at the presentations because there

1303
01:07:50,900 --> 01:07:54,900
seems to be something particularly subversive maybe

1304
01:07:54,900 --> 01:07:58,600
in this notion of play as

1305
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:00,800
it emerges in

1306
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:02,400
the context of Art.

1307
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:06,600
And all of us seem to have that now it

1308
01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:09,800
is this question. Can we apply this? What

1309
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:10,700
can we do with this?

1310
01:08:12,500 --> 01:08:15,200
That's just just to jump it. I think isn't it

1311
01:08:15,200 --> 01:08:18,400
because they it struck me that I suspect depending on the community that

1312
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:22,000
you're interacting or relating or part

1313
01:08:21,300 --> 01:08:24,500
of my lunch is that people might see

1314
01:08:24,500 --> 01:08:26,300
teagan's work as social policy?

1315
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:30,700
And in my community when I when I show this to Bankers,

1316
01:08:30,700 --> 01:08:33,900
they think wow we could use this to do some virtue signaling

1317
01:08:33,900 --> 01:08:36,600
if we could write into people's bank accounts climate

1318
01:08:36,600 --> 01:08:40,000
crisis, we could take ownership of a marketing

1319
01:08:39,500 --> 01:08:42,700
opportunity. So it might be that

1320
01:08:42,700 --> 01:08:47,100
all of the the play becomes playful

1321
01:08:46,100 --> 01:08:48,900
because another party

1322
01:08:49,800 --> 01:08:52,300
Then is able to own it and that now we might

1323
01:08:52,300 --> 01:08:56,200
not want them to or not. We might be interested in them appropriating

1324
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:58,400
it but my hunch is whenever

1325
01:08:58,400 --> 01:09:01,800
I played in front of different audiences people

1326
01:09:01,800 --> 01:09:04,500
have found ways to appropriate it

1327
01:09:04,500 --> 01:09:07,000
in a critical sense or in you know,

1328
01:09:07,500 --> 01:09:11,000
in a commercial sense. I don't know where that's the case with you John Teague

1329
01:09:10,100 --> 01:09:13,100
and the idea that people will find things in your

1330
01:09:13,100 --> 01:09:15,600
play and they because it's playful.

1331
01:09:16,400 --> 01:09:19,700
They will own it. I think that's okay. I

1332
01:09:19,700 --> 01:09:22,100
the perimeters around that are always

1333
01:09:22,100 --> 01:09:26,000
interesting between design does I want people to adopt our things

1334
01:09:25,100 --> 01:09:29,400
artists might be less concerned worried

1335
01:09:28,400 --> 01:09:30,900
about adoption. Does that make sense?

1336
01:09:32,400 --> 01:09:35,400
I I think that that's also a way to

1337
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:37,200
apply or Lumber.

1338
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:44,000
Idea, right. I mean playfulness becomes the

1339
01:09:42,600 --> 01:09:45,100
playfulness of the Observer.

1340
01:09:45,900 --> 01:09:48,400
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I hope

1341
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:51,300
so. I think I'm quite happy with it. Although I can see other

1342
01:09:51,300 --> 01:09:51,400
people.

1343
01:09:52,500 --> 01:09:55,900
Might not be sometimes artists onto well. They

1344
01:09:55,900 --> 01:09:58,200
don't want to worry about the interpretation. They want to

1345
01:09:58,200 --> 01:09:58,500
stay away.

1346
01:10:00,300 --> 01:10:03,500
Yeah, it's interesting that you say that because I think

1347
01:10:03,500 --> 01:10:04,100
with the

1348
01:10:05,200 --> 01:10:07,000
schools have been actually algorithms like

1349
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:11,400
broad enough in kind of like unpacking it and allowing it to

1350
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:14,400
revolve by itself. I think it was what is really wanted me

1351
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:17,700
in it was that there was a community of practice. So every

1352
01:10:17,700 --> 01:10:20,400
single time we shifted the goal post

1353
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:23,400
of what it could be why it existed or what was there's

1354
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:26,700
always an outside influence that had that so

1355
01:10:26,700 --> 01:10:29,100
I never really wanted to lead it in a way

1356
01:10:29,100 --> 01:10:32,400
that I wanted to do the owner of this thing and quite interestingly because of

1357
01:10:32,400 --> 01:10:35,800
that. It's such a diverse question and that

1358
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:38,200
everybody sees it wants to do different things with it.

1359
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:41,600
So some people are chasing me to go and

1360
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:45,000
develop a primary school curriculum for

1361
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:47,100
South African students on this which I would love

1362
01:10:47,100 --> 01:10:50,200
to do good. Do I have this good to do that other people

1363
01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:53,800
are you know, really thinking about a philosophy

1364
01:10:53,800 --> 01:10:56,300
of Technology perspective and how do we then write this into

1365
01:10:56,300 --> 01:10:59,500
African plus technology and how to do that so that

1366
01:10:59,500 --> 01:11:02,900
every angle there's a there's a potential for for this

1367
01:11:02,900 --> 01:11:05,100
to be something for this to be something else and I

1368
01:11:05,100 --> 01:11:05,600
think that's

1369
01:11:06,800 --> 01:11:09,300
And it's a bit scary because I've always done it as

1370
01:11:09,300 --> 01:11:12,500
in the perspective of an artist thinking about challenging a space

1371
01:11:12,500 --> 01:11:15,800
and criticizing that space or untangling that

1372
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:18,300
space in different ways or bringing in you way of thinking

1373
01:11:18,300 --> 01:11:22,500
to a group of people and that's the

1374
01:11:22,500 --> 01:11:25,200
I suppose the advantage of the United States. You

1375
01:11:25,200 --> 01:11:28,900
can do that without having to have an end product. And and yeah,

1376
01:11:28,900 --> 01:11:31,300
it's quite a lot of questions feel that

1377
01:11:31,300 --> 01:11:34,500
one of those should become an intellect and some point and what else

1378
01:11:34,500 --> 01:11:35,600
can be done with it, you know.

1379
01:11:36,300 --> 01:11:39,700
Did you mind if I follow up clearly I'm cute because another question then

1380
01:11:39,700 --> 01:11:42,400
is to what extent do each

1381
01:11:42,400 --> 01:11:44,800
of us find that there might be dark play?

1382
01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:48,200
So what you've just done there Tegan is a

1383
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:51,500
suggest that people have read into the opportunity and they've found

1384
01:11:51,500 --> 01:11:55,800
very altruistic opportunities to inform education policy.

1385
01:11:54,800 --> 01:11:57,300
Whenever we

1386
01:11:57,300 --> 01:12:00,500
do this with the square device, we get

1387
01:12:00,500 --> 01:12:03,500
shut down because actually hmrc and

1388
01:12:03,500 --> 01:12:06,800
square see it as money laundering in other

1389
01:12:06,800 --> 01:12:09,300
words. It's dark play. So that makes sense. So

1390
01:12:09,300 --> 01:12:12,700
they literally see we got kicked off some up some up

1391
01:12:12,700 --> 01:12:15,400
is another one of these payment platforms and they

1392
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:18,500
just saw us that this is the speed guy is just taking

1393
01:12:18,500 --> 01:12:21,600
money and refunding it taking money

1394
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:23,900
and refunding he must be money laundering.

1395
01:12:24,500 --> 01:12:28,100
Because we're not seeing any profit. So I'm so just

1396
01:12:27,100 --> 01:12:30,300
so if we are playful I wonder to what

1397
01:12:30,300 --> 01:12:30,800
extent.

1398
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:34,300
Each of you find people appropriating it

1399
01:12:34,300 --> 01:12:38,000
appropriating it toward a Darkness because sometimes

1400
01:12:37,400 --> 01:12:40,300
that's okay. Well, it's not that it well. It's

1401
01:12:40,300 --> 01:12:40,600
okay because

1402
01:12:41,800 --> 01:12:44,800
That's what play does. Does that make sense? Hmm?

1403
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:50,000
Actually, we have some questions in the chat. I

1404
01:12:49,200 --> 01:12:52,400
would like to also I mean if you

1405
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:55,500
if you have a microphone, please just

1406
01:12:55,500 --> 01:12:59,000
a mute yourself and feel free to kind of join the

1407
01:12:58,400 --> 01:13:01,800
discussion, but I can also

1408
01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:05,100
read these if otherwise

1409
01:13:06,700 --> 01:13:09,800
so one one comment really

1410
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:12,600
was also about someone being like

1411
01:13:12,600 --> 01:13:14,800
American and then trying to open.

1412
01:13:16,700 --> 01:13:17,000
like

1413
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:24,500
open a bank account in Switzerland because of and this

1414
01:13:23,500 --> 01:13:26,200
being problematic because there are

1415
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:29,900
very different Notions of what of what

1416
01:13:29,900 --> 01:13:33,700
personal data is or

1417
01:13:33,700 --> 01:13:36,600
what what someone like

1418
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:37,300
a bank

1419
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:39,600
Should do with it.

1420
01:13:40,500 --> 01:13:43,400
So like that's quite interesting comment. I'm

1421
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:46,700
wondering in this context whether Chris you

1422
01:13:46,700 --> 01:13:50,100
have come across these different ideas of

1423
01:13:49,100 --> 01:13:52,400
personal data with your project.

1424
01:13:53,200 --> 01:13:56,100
Yeah, and I can fall in fold in the answer to Laura's Point

1425
01:13:56,100 --> 01:13:59,300
as well really. But yeah, so we've found that

1426
01:13:59,300 --> 01:14:03,500
every you'll all find as a financial regulation Authority

1427
01:14:02,500 --> 01:14:04,400
or a financial.

1428
01:14:06,200 --> 01:14:09,300
What's the word the foa in the UK? It is a

1429
01:14:09,300 --> 01:14:12,500
whole bunch of financial something authorities and they're all we

1430
01:14:12,500 --> 01:14:15,400
had to buy every every country we go to we have to buy another

1431
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:15,700
one of these.

1432
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:19,200
Which is really bizarre for digital so I can take my

1433
01:14:19,200 --> 01:14:22,500
phone abroad into multiple countries, but I

1434
01:14:22,500 --> 01:14:25,500
must have a specific region specific device. So

1435
01:14:25,500 --> 01:14:28,800
which speaks to regulation because again regulation

1436
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:31,800
around data is very very

1437
01:14:31,800 --> 01:14:34,400
different to money. So I like that and that's maybe

1438
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:37,400
speaking to the second question. Which this is where the cut comes

1439
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:40,600
in. I don't know if I'm misappropriating Brad here,

1440
01:14:40,600 --> 01:14:43,400
but I like the cut. I like to place people into an awkward

1441
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:46,700
moment. So if I ask Tegan or

1442
01:14:46,700 --> 01:14:48,300
John or Claudia to tap

1443
01:14:49,100 --> 01:14:52,100
Spiritually with their advice and they might offer me

1444
01:14:52,100 --> 01:14:55,300
I could say I'm not sure what currencies you're operating in

1445
01:14:55,300 --> 01:14:56,900
but a pound is fine.

1446
01:14:57,500 --> 01:15:00,600
And I refund it. I trust you. I can refund it refunds because

1447
01:15:00,600 --> 01:15:03,400
people always tweeting on climate action when you raise the

1448
01:15:03,400 --> 01:15:06,500
stakes to a hundred pounds, I guarantee you

1449
01:15:06,500 --> 01:15:07,700
will be refunded.

1450
01:15:08,900 --> 01:15:11,400
But the stakes change and the Jeopardy changes

1451
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:14,800
so Lara, I really like this Jeopardy moment.

1452
01:15:14,800 --> 01:15:17,200
So it's maybe that's the artist in me. I like to

1453
01:15:17,200 --> 01:15:20,500
raise the stakes and I like to ask so the ethics

1454
01:15:20,500 --> 01:15:23,000
for this because I we had to pass an ethics.

1455
01:15:24,100 --> 01:15:27,600
Team policy panel in Edinburgh, which

1456
01:15:27,600 --> 01:15:30,200
are really hot and they were very uncomfortable because in the

1457
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:34,000
ethics it guarantees usually to follow the data. I

1458
01:15:33,200 --> 01:15:36,800
can't follow the data with square. I just

1459
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:39,200
can't so when I asked you to consent you have to

1460
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:42,300
agree that I can't offer you following the data,

1461
01:15:42,300 --> 01:15:45,700
but that's part of the the Jeopardy. How do

1462
01:15:45,700 --> 01:15:48,100
I take you to a place where otherwise these things are

1463
01:15:48,100 --> 01:15:51,800
so seamless into a place of Jeopardy and uncomfortable.

1464
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:52,100
So

1465
01:15:52,900 --> 01:15:55,500
yeah, what's the effect or the emotions? Yeah

1466
01:15:55,500 --> 01:15:58,600
place you in conditions in which your economic imaginary

1467
01:15:58,600 --> 01:16:00,900
takes you out of the norm. I hope that's okay.

1468
01:16:02,500 --> 01:16:05,300
Well, I don't care if it's okay. That's that's what

1469
01:16:05,300 --> 01:16:05,700
I tried to do.

1470
01:16:07,300 --> 01:16:11,500
So it's it's dark play the super subversive

1471
01:16:10,500 --> 01:16:13,300
play or a stark play.

1472
01:16:13,300 --> 01:16:16,900
The the one that is appropriated by

1473
01:16:16,900 --> 01:16:18,100
the big players.

1474
01:16:20,300 --> 01:16:23,200
I have done enough talking to you John. I wonder whether how that

1475
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:26,400
yeah, because I suspect you've both got Works which might

1476
01:16:26,400 --> 01:16:29,100
want to be appropriated with a and that then

1477
01:16:29,100 --> 01:16:31,400
becomes subjective whether it's dark or light.

1478
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:35,800
I mean just before I answer that you

1479
01:16:35,800 --> 01:16:37,100
said something very interesting and

1480
01:16:38,300 --> 01:16:42,600
Also all that was in a different context, so I'm appending it.

1481
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,700
You said I don't care that my opinion, right?

1482
01:16:46,700 --> 01:16:49,400
At some point and I think these also

1483
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:52,600
kind of like reflects to the question from Queen

1484
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:53,200
Clerk.

1485
01:16:53,900 --> 01:16:58,500
About feeling pressure whether

1486
01:16:56,500 --> 01:16:59,300
acting as

1487
01:16:59,300 --> 01:17:00,800
an artist or as sign.

1488
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:06,300
So I'm just using it like to hire a

1489
01:17:05,300 --> 01:17:08,700
hijack with the discussion. I

1490
01:17:08,700 --> 01:17:12,000
think that the artist has

1491
01:17:11,300 --> 01:17:15,500
this kind of need to

1492
01:17:15,500 --> 01:17:20,100
go into this place of risk and and

1493
01:17:18,100 --> 01:17:21,900
openness in

1494
01:17:21,900 --> 01:17:24,400
meaning and not necessarily any type

1495
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:26,400
of functionality and and of course

1496
01:17:27,900 --> 01:17:30,300
Because I come from a background of

1497
01:17:30,300 --> 01:17:34,300
Applied Arts before I went into the finance.

1498
01:17:35,100 --> 01:17:38,000
And I feel a lot

1499
01:17:38,100 --> 01:17:41,200
of pressure when I'm asked to do something which design related.

1500
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:44,600
And I found myself the last years not not

1501
01:17:44,600 --> 01:17:48,400
being able to do that, which is a bit of a problem in a

1502
01:17:48,400 --> 01:17:51,600
personal approach and I'm dealing with it. But I find

1503
01:17:51,600 --> 01:17:54,400
a lot of pressure there and I cannot easily

1504
01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:57,300
cope this switching between my

1505
01:17:57,300 --> 01:18:00,400
my heart Direction, you know,

1506
01:18:00,400 --> 01:18:03,900
I cannot switch so fast to go

1507
01:18:03,900 --> 01:18:06,900
to something that I love and and enjoy

1508
01:18:06,900 --> 01:18:09,300
something that I don't really care and I

1509
01:18:09,300 --> 01:18:12,100
have to go through the big post caring in order to do.

1510
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:13,300
listen

1511
01:18:16,300 --> 01:18:19,700
Here, I think it's I I suppose it

1512
01:18:19,700 --> 01:18:24,200
depends the kind of design task, but they

1513
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:25,600
tend to be obviously very

1514
01:18:25,600 --> 01:18:28,400
many more constraints than

1515
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:32,000
in a typical kind of art context and it's

1516
01:18:31,400 --> 01:18:35,000
it's more difficult to do this appending

1517
01:18:34,800 --> 01:18:38,100
but I think it's beside precisely

1518
01:18:37,100 --> 01:18:41,200
because of it. It's maybe more interesting

1519
01:18:40,200 --> 01:18:43,600
often than in

1520
01:18:43,600 --> 01:18:45,900
art context. So I think

1521
01:18:47,300 --> 01:18:50,100
for me, it's actually quite important to to be

1522
01:18:50,100 --> 01:18:53,900
to play Within the context of design because because

1523
01:18:53,900 --> 01:18:54,500
of

1524
01:18:55,400 --> 01:18:57,600
this possibility to kind of

1525
01:19:00,200 --> 01:19:00,800
maybe

1526
01:19:02,600 --> 01:19:05,500
affect more I mean

1527
01:19:05,500 --> 01:19:09,200
because they are more constraints and because the

1528
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:11,700
expectations are typically that the

1529
01:19:11,700 --> 01:19:12,600
designers kind of

1530
01:19:13,500 --> 01:19:14,600
you know the kind of

1531
01:19:15,300 --> 01:19:16,800
provide the

1532
01:19:18,700 --> 01:19:19,000
the

1533
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:23,100
What is what they asked to

1534
01:19:23,100 --> 01:19:26,300
provide and then to do this, but at the

1535
01:19:26,300 --> 01:19:28,000
same time to append things?

1536
01:19:28,700 --> 01:19:31,300
That that is the challenge I think.

1537
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:35,300
Just to qualify a bit where because that the transcript

1538
01:19:35,300 --> 01:19:38,600
will say Christian Care and he well so I don't care

1539
01:19:38,600 --> 01:19:41,400
about the Miss interpretation. I do

1540
01:19:41,400 --> 01:19:44,100
care about the people. I really do and John you didn't

1541
01:19:44,100 --> 01:19:47,300
set that up. I said it you're not you but I do so we

1542
01:19:47,300 --> 01:19:49,300
ran through the ethics and I am really concerned.

1543
01:19:50,200 --> 01:19:54,100
About the look on your face when I say would you like to charge

1544
01:19:53,100 --> 01:19:56,600
a thousand bucks, but I don't force

1545
01:19:56,600 --> 01:19:59,300
you to do it. But what I what I

1546
01:19:59,700 --> 01:20:02,900
don't carry to control the interpretation, but I

1547
01:20:02,900 --> 01:20:05,200
do yeah, we did run through ethics and

1548
01:20:05,200 --> 01:20:06,700
I do I do care about how you

1549
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:10,300
I can take you to a moment that places on your

1550
01:20:10,300 --> 01:20:13,800
imaginary, but I wouldn't want to force you into any participant

1551
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:14,600
into a place of

1552
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:18,300
Being uncomfortably. Does that make sense? Sorry. I'm just

1553
01:20:18,300 --> 01:20:21,600
aware. It's still curious about Tegan how people whether people

1554
01:20:21,600 --> 01:20:23,400
might come into your work to see.

1555
01:20:24,400 --> 01:20:26,400
not dark play but whether they want to

1556
01:20:27,500 --> 01:20:30,500
because I can imagine if you don't mind me saying there's some great virtue

1557
01:20:30,500 --> 01:20:35,000
washing that we could do with regional.

1558
01:20:36,400 --> 01:20:40,000
Efforts to to kind of show that

1559
01:20:39,100 --> 01:20:42,600
people are engaging in Regional algorithms, I

1560
01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:45,600
think local algorithms. Does that make sense that it

1561
01:20:45,600 --> 01:20:45,700
would be

1562
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:50,800
Virtue washing if people aren't involved participatory.

1563
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:51,600
Does that make sense?

1564
01:20:54,400 --> 01:20:57,600
And what do you mean by virtue watching? Sorry. Well, I

1565
01:20:57,600 --> 01:21:00,400
so I could go into a community in Scotland and

1566
01:21:00,400 --> 01:21:04,100
and I could do some algorithmic Regional

1567
01:21:03,100 --> 01:21:07,000
local algorithmic workshops

1568
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:09,400
borrowing some of your methods showing them some

1569
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:12,100
of the pictures that you might have had in a slide

1570
01:21:12,100 --> 01:21:15,200
Decker on the internet and then I could take those back to

1571
01:21:15,200 --> 01:21:18,300
Edinburgh and say look what we've done in the local regions. The community

1572
01:21:18,300 --> 01:21:22,500
are really wedded to manifesting Regional

1573
01:21:21,500 --> 01:21:24,200
algorithmic practices, but I

1574
01:21:24,200 --> 01:21:27,300
would only be using it rhetorically almost suggest that

1575
01:21:27,300 --> 01:21:30,100
Chris is doing a good community service. Do you

1576
01:21:30,100 --> 01:21:32,700
see what I mean? And but yours is a deep practice, right?

1577
01:21:34,200 --> 01:21:38,000
Yeah, it's a complicated thing because I've also not so while

1578
01:21:37,100 --> 01:21:40,700
I'm leading a conversation on it. I'm also not practicing

1579
01:21:40,700 --> 01:21:43,200
it myself, you know, I am practicing but I'm

1580
01:21:43,200 --> 01:21:46,500
not I've never I've never enacted any aspect

1581
01:21:46,500 --> 01:21:49,800
of the project unless without like extreme

1582
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:52,100
consultation and I think this this is

1583
01:21:52,100 --> 01:21:53,300
also how and

1584
01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:58,200
The principles that I'm addressing will are

1585
01:21:57,200 --> 01:22:00,600
that like that that knowledge is

1586
01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:03,900
shared in a community of practice and I think one of the other thing one of

1587
01:22:03,900 --> 01:22:06,400
the other things is it's representation. So one

1588
01:22:06,400 --> 01:22:09,400
of the really big issues I think around I kind

1589
01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:12,200
of colonial practice but also I suppose in

1590
01:22:12,200 --> 01:22:15,300
a way like being a a I mean

1591
01:22:15,300 --> 01:22:18,500
I can make eight generation British and

1592
01:22:18,500 --> 01:22:21,500
Colonial you call

1593
01:22:21,500 --> 01:22:24,600
myself that like eight Generations in and I'm deeply

1594
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:27,800
South African bit and I'm not culturally from

1595
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:30,500
from South Africa so I don't I'm not really and

1596
01:22:30,500 --> 01:22:33,200
I don't have like it's really Heritage so I can't like

1597
01:22:33,200 --> 01:22:36,600
playing that this is my Heritage and this is how I practice and

1598
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:41,200
this is what I do. Actually I have a very bastardized British

1599
01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:43,200
Heritage at home will be speak English and maybe

1600
01:22:43,200 --> 01:22:46,700
eat for us be vacationally but have no connection

1601
01:22:46,700 --> 01:22:50,100
at all with with the UK.

1602
01:22:49,100 --> 01:22:52,000
So I think there's also the

1603
01:22:52,200 --> 01:22:54,100
thing I have I have the right.

1604
01:22:54,300 --> 01:22:57,600
Represent a kind of practice and

1605
01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:00,500
talk about a practice from only my perspective.

1606
01:23:00,500 --> 01:23:03,300
So that's not possible for me to do. So in

1607
01:23:03,300 --> 01:23:06,600
every case. It's always about bringing a bead

1608
01:23:06,600 --> 01:23:09,300
worker in to to work on and speak through her

1609
01:23:09,300 --> 01:23:12,300
practice or working with and classrooms. Like

1610
01:23:12,300 --> 01:23:15,200
who's working in this in his own practice in different ways as well.

1611
01:23:15,200 --> 01:23:18,500
So he's a really accomplished composer and

1612
01:23:18,500 --> 01:23:21,400
a choreographer and so it's also about

1613
01:23:21,400 --> 01:23:24,400
him just kind of speaking about that from his own perspective.

1614
01:23:24,400 --> 01:23:27,600
So I would never so while I'm fascinated in it

1615
01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:30,300
because it allows us to challenge a very certain question. I'm

1616
01:23:30,300 --> 01:23:33,400
very aware of like this is why it's interesting to me and why it's significant

1617
01:23:33,400 --> 01:23:36,200
to my work and I like this is why it's a liquid

1618
01:23:36,200 --> 01:23:39,400
to him and his book again. Please rehearse and in each

1619
01:23:39,400 --> 01:23:42,800
case and each time each iteration of the project we had

1620
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:45,200
contributed to then have their own

1621
01:23:45,200 --> 01:23:48,300
position and encounter with the work and I

1622
01:23:48,300 --> 01:23:48,800
think it

1623
01:23:50,600 --> 01:23:53,600
It heightens it as well. It gives it a lot of like

1624
01:23:53,600 --> 01:23:56,800
a meaning because it's not me saying like philosophizing

1625
01:23:56,800 --> 01:23:59,800
about what it is, but it also allows allows each

1626
01:23:59,800 --> 01:24:02,300
person to take that practice into their own community

1627
01:24:02,300 --> 01:24:05,500
in a different way. And so I will do work with

1628
01:24:05,500 --> 01:24:08,500
it in the university in one way with my students and clientele working

1629
01:24:08,500 --> 01:24:11,200
with it in with his performers and the work

1630
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:14,200
that he does and composing and writing plays in different ways.

1631
01:24:14,200 --> 01:24:17,300
And that's the point. It's really slow.

1632
01:24:18,100 --> 01:24:21,400
Crazy amounts of slow. It's not something that you can

1633
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:24,300
have gold posts on let's say this year, we're gonna do this and

1634
01:24:24,300 --> 01:24:27,300
that's gonna be the outcome. So every year we

1635
01:24:27,300 --> 01:24:30,400
try and do a little bit of something and the schools

1636
01:24:30,400 --> 01:24:33,600
have been actually out because we still actually want to run it here probably in

1637
01:24:33,600 --> 01:24:36,100
South Africa. But again, it's like finding the

1638
01:24:36,100 --> 01:24:39,300
right time for including the right time for please do it and

1639
01:24:39,300 --> 01:24:39,900
I kind of feel that

1640
01:24:41,600 --> 01:24:44,700
It to talks about the time that we

1641
01:24:44,700 --> 01:24:48,000
don't really have control over. It's also a system generally

1642
01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:50,600
so used to say you're gonna start something and think and

1643
01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:53,500
then that's how it's gonna be. But this way we also just

1644
01:24:53,500 --> 01:24:56,400
letting it take its own time. And so

1645
01:24:56,400 --> 01:24:57,900
it's beyond and

1646
01:24:59,100 --> 01:25:02,100
It's yeah, it's beyond a kind of controllable time as well because

1647
01:25:02,100 --> 01:25:06,400
it's it's about life and how we think about it and itself has

1648
01:25:06,400 --> 01:25:09,100
to unpack and become in its own

1649
01:25:09,100 --> 01:25:12,300
way. And so that's I don't know if that really answers

1650
01:25:12,300 --> 01:25:13,100
your question. But yeah.

1651
01:25:14,200 --> 01:25:17,400
Yeah, no, it's great. It's difficult project because people

1652
01:25:17,400 --> 01:25:20,300
often ask me about where needs to go and I think that I

1653
01:25:20,300 --> 01:25:23,400
think that I'd like to do and I think that people would like to do and I'm

1654
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:26,300
okay with them doing that. I don't feel that there's an ownership here

1655
01:25:26,300 --> 01:25:29,100
as long as this value in a very

1656
01:25:29,100 --> 01:25:31,700
particular way and it's a consultant that you know,

1657
01:25:34,500 --> 01:25:38,100
Dad, super great. Yeah, great. We are

1658
01:25:37,100 --> 01:25:40,000
unfortunately already at the

1659
01:25:40,200 --> 01:25:43,500
end of the the time we have scheduled for

1660
01:25:43,500 --> 01:25:46,600
this panel. I was wondering we need

1661
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:49,800
it seemed maybe you had another note

1662
01:25:49,800 --> 01:25:50,800
to question.

1663
01:25:51,900 --> 01:25:55,500
Something Ryan maybe once it's to transmit

1664
01:25:54,500 --> 01:25:56,100
at the beginning.

1665
01:25:57,100 --> 01:25:58,000
I think I

1666
01:25:59,400 --> 01:26:02,400
yeah, yeah did Queenie put our face on the screen? I felt

1667
01:26:02,400 --> 01:26:05,300
so bad talking over and that felt really naughty Queenie. So

1668
01:26:05,300 --> 01:26:09,000
if you if that was you just jump back. Sorry. Yes. Yeah, no

1669
01:26:08,200 --> 01:26:10,000
worries. No, I was just

1670
01:26:11,100 --> 01:26:14,500
I kind of was I was interested with the question that

1671
01:26:14,500 --> 01:26:18,200
I asked I was interested in thinking about more like

1672
01:26:19,100 --> 01:26:22,600
The pressure of play so I I

1673
01:26:22,600 --> 01:26:25,700
found that the the there's an

1674
01:26:25,700 --> 01:26:27,200
assumption that players always good.

1675
01:26:28,300 --> 01:26:31,900
and in different situations actually playfulness can

1676
01:26:31,900 --> 01:26:34,300
be quite a privileged position and I

1677
01:26:34,300 --> 01:26:37,700
just wondered in your own practices where if you found tensions

1678
01:26:37,700 --> 01:26:40,400
of that of using play and where you've maybe

1679
01:26:40,400 --> 01:26:43,700
had to pull back from that idea of something being

1680
01:26:43,700 --> 01:26:46,100
playful or not playful and because I

1681
01:26:46,100 --> 01:26:49,800
guess that relating that back to kind of systems it

1682
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:52,400
kind of depends that context or system that you're working in

1683
01:26:52,400 --> 01:26:55,600
is how you understand what

1684
01:26:55,600 --> 01:26:57,100
play is and stuff that

1685
01:26:58,600 --> 01:27:01,300
but it is 33 minutes past. So I

1686
01:27:01,300 --> 01:27:05,600
under some people will be very hungry probably for their lunch. Yeah, so

1687
01:27:05,600 --> 01:27:08,400
you don't need to answer it really that was wiping my face on and

1688
01:27:08,400 --> 01:27:11,100
for Ryan's message. He did

1689
01:27:11,100 --> 01:27:14,600
put it in the chat, but they just wanted to thank the

1690
01:27:14,600 --> 01:27:17,400
facilitators and panelists for making this session happen as

1691
01:27:17,400 --> 01:27:20,300
a part of our sdx and invite everyone to join

1692
01:27:20,300 --> 01:27:23,700
a community discussions happening online between sessions

1693
01:27:23,700 --> 01:27:26,400
at the website link that they've they

1694
01:27:26,400 --> 01:27:29,500
put in it's on display. Maybe we should

1695
01:27:29,500 --> 01:27:32,500
post it again because there are some people joining

1696
01:27:32,500 --> 01:27:34,400
late. There we go.

1697
01:27:35,300 --> 01:27:40,100
Oh, okay. Great. Super excellent. All

1698
01:27:38,100 --> 01:27:40,800
right, but thank you.

1699
01:27:42,300 --> 01:27:45,800
Yeah in a way it's a bit sad we're ran

1700
01:27:45,800 --> 01:27:49,900
out of time so quickly and it

1701
01:27:48,900 --> 01:27:51,200
would be great to answer this question,

1702
01:27:51,200 --> 01:27:54,000
but it's a lovely it's a lovely bookend Queenie because

1703
01:27:54,300 --> 01:27:57,800
you're absolutely right. We shouldn't I mean we I am deeply privileged

1704
01:27:57,800 --> 01:28:00,200
even to find the time on a Saturday

1705
01:28:00,200 --> 01:28:03,500
morning when I used to empty the Lego with the kids on the

1706
01:28:03,500 --> 01:28:03,700
floor.

1707
01:28:04,600 --> 01:28:07,400
And that it was there wasn't there

1708
01:28:07,400 --> 01:28:10,200
was a time excess. Some people are very time poor and

1709
01:28:10,200 --> 01:28:13,600
that ability to just go to a place where two kids

1710
01:28:13,600 --> 01:28:16,600
need two kids. We didn't solve the Lego according

1711
01:28:16,600 --> 01:28:17,300
to the program.

1712
01:28:18,100 --> 01:28:21,100
We just said what does this do when you put it like this?

1713
01:28:21,100 --> 01:28:24,300
What does this do when you put it like that and that is

1714
01:28:24,300 --> 01:28:27,300
a tremendous privilege to have the time and space

1715
01:28:27,300 --> 01:28:28,200
to stand outside.

1716
01:28:29,100 --> 01:28:31,800
Of time on a Saturday morning when we've created.

1717
01:28:32,700 --> 01:28:36,800
A weekend, which is another social construction. Does that

1718
01:28:36,800 --> 01:28:39,100
make sense? And so now yeah, I think

1719
01:28:39,100 --> 01:28:41,100
you it's brilliant. Yeah great points and

1720
01:28:42,400 --> 01:28:45,500
Acknowledge the ability in the time as academic to

1721
01:28:45,500 --> 01:28:48,200
stand outside, which is again another privilege to

1722
01:28:48,200 --> 01:28:50,900
play. Yeah, many people don't have the chance to

1723
01:28:52,800 --> 01:28:53,200
Yes.

1724
01:28:54,300 --> 01:28:57,900
No, I think it's it's a good point really to

1725
01:28:57,900 --> 01:29:01,100
acknowledge that this is a position of privilege.

1726
01:29:05,500 --> 01:29:06,000
whereby

1727
01:29:07,300 --> 01:29:07,600
I mean

1728
01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:15,200
I mean when we are teaching I mean this could go on

1729
01:29:15,200 --> 01:29:19,700
forever, you know, because obviously we're trying

1730
01:29:19,700 --> 01:29:22,700
to not necessarily to transmit this

1731
01:29:22,700 --> 01:29:25,300
notion of

1732
01:29:26,800 --> 01:29:27,100
but

1733
01:29:28,500 --> 01:29:31,200
but play can also I mean it could

1734
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:36,300
also take you out of a position of this

1735
01:29:34,300 --> 01:29:37,700
privilege, you

1736
01:29:37,700 --> 01:29:37,700
know.

1737
01:29:38,500 --> 01:29:41,600
I think this is what we're interested in. So.

1738
01:29:43,800 --> 01:29:46,700
While one can look at Players something

1739
01:29:46,700 --> 01:29:49,700
that is opposite, you know acted out

1740
01:29:49,700 --> 01:29:52,500
from a position of privilege. I

1741
01:29:52,500 --> 01:29:55,400
think what we are really interested in when we also

1742
01:29:55,400 --> 01:29:58,500
talking to students and and teaching

1743
01:29:58,500 --> 01:29:58,800
and

1744
01:29:59,700 --> 01:30:03,700
and to to you to

1745
01:30:02,700 --> 01:30:06,100
transmit it

1746
01:30:06,100 --> 01:30:09,400
as a notion of like getting out of a position

1747
01:30:09,400 --> 01:30:11,500
of being this privileged.

1748
01:30:12,200 --> 01:30:16,000
To to create to to

1749
01:30:15,300 --> 01:30:17,500
really change the system.

1750
01:30:22,300 --> 01:30:25,800
maybe that is again privileged knowledge then but

1751
01:30:30,500 --> 01:30:33,500
especially when we act we do this at the

1752
01:30:33,500 --> 01:30:36,900
University when we act with in within communities,

1753
01:30:36,900 --> 01:30:38,300
it's obviously very different.

1754
01:30:39,500 --> 01:30:42,200
So it's easy with them

1755
01:30:42,200 --> 01:30:45,500
not just to kind of wrap up

1756
01:30:45,500 --> 01:30:46,900
and say like, you know, the

1757
01:30:48,100 --> 01:30:51,200
you know when you talk about privilege and we talk about those things and

1758
01:30:51,200 --> 01:30:53,400
also money like you're saying Chris like the

1759
01:30:54,500 --> 01:30:57,600
no working with PC where like I met pcware

1760
01:30:57,600 --> 01:30:59,200
and in the market.

1761
01:31:00,300 --> 01:31:03,400
and she makes speed work for her religion

1762
01:31:03,400 --> 01:31:06,400
her religion and which is Shameless that really

1763
01:31:06,400 --> 01:31:09,100
complicated stuff position there religious things that she makes

1764
01:31:09,100 --> 01:31:13,600
it for ceremony and that kind of stuff and she Herbert

1765
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:15,000
her family or in case it and

1766
01:31:16,400 --> 01:31:19,300
And you know within when we started working

1767
01:31:19,300 --> 01:31:22,400
together, I went to go visit her home and she

1768
01:31:22,400 --> 01:31:25,800
she lives in like near like really poor

1769
01:31:25,800 --> 01:31:28,800
purple like it literally an intern Shack and in a

1770
01:31:28,800 --> 01:31:31,200
in a Township and it you know, the

1771
01:31:31,200 --> 01:31:34,400
the advantage of working on the project with me was that she would get

1772
01:31:34,400 --> 01:31:37,300
to make more work and sell more work and have the opportunity

1773
01:31:37,300 --> 01:31:40,600
to to do that. So she she was really amazing

1774
01:31:40,600 --> 01:31:43,400
to me because that was her, you know getting through to

1775
01:31:43,400 --> 01:31:46,700
children and being able to educate them was like the so

1776
01:31:46,700 --> 01:31:49,300
desperate and yeah, she

1777
01:31:49,300 --> 01:31:53,100
could sit with me and have really long mathematical conversations about

1778
01:31:52,100 --> 01:31:55,400
what she was making and the philosophies behind

1779
01:31:55,400 --> 01:31:58,600
it and the cultural implications behind it and was and you

1780
01:31:58,600 --> 01:32:01,400
know for me, I know that when I invite her to Workshop to

1781
01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:04,400
work and she's not doing free I have to find a way to pay him and

1782
01:32:04,400 --> 01:32:08,000
that's also why the project is kind of quite delayed because we and

1783
01:32:07,200 --> 01:32:11,100
it's not a it's not a man and monetize project

1784
01:32:10,100 --> 01:32:13,100
we do we don't charge for it, but I

1785
01:32:13,100 --> 01:32:16,100
would have to find funding and find a way to do that.

1786
01:32:16,300 --> 01:32:19,100
And pay her bus, you know talking about transport. How do

1787
01:32:19,100 --> 01:32:22,200
you get here? I would send her money so that she could get a taxi to

1788
01:32:22,200 --> 01:32:25,400
come because it was actually really expensive for her to come to

1789
01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:28,100
me. So I think that the levels of you know,

1790
01:32:28,100 --> 01:32:31,600
what how do we understand privilege? And you know,

1791
01:32:31,600 --> 01:32:34,800
what are we doing there? They're extremities of who you

1792
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:37,200
might work with and what their privileges are like you're saying

1793
01:32:37,200 --> 01:32:40,200
this and how they understand the systems that they're working.

1794
01:32:40,200 --> 01:32:43,500
I think are really really challenging from a luck a

1795
01:32:43,500 --> 01:32:46,400
lot of different levels, but I think it can't assume that

1796
01:32:46,400 --> 01:32:49,400
and having privileges, you know,

1797
01:32:49,400 --> 01:32:52,500
please like very upset task and

1798
01:32:52,500 --> 01:32:56,000
I'm talking philosophy and Mathematics and yet

1799
01:32:55,700 --> 01:32:58,500
it hasn't been years in her

1800
01:32:58,500 --> 01:33:02,400
life. And I think you know thinking about how we we

1801
01:33:01,400 --> 01:33:05,300
think about knowledge and culture systems on

1802
01:33:04,300 --> 01:33:07,300
student who understands our systems. I think

1803
01:33:07,300 --> 01:33:10,300
it's really really important here and then it's not doesn't

1804
01:33:10,300 --> 01:33:13,300
belong to listen to people it belongs to everybody.

1805
01:33:16,300 --> 01:33:19,200
And I think that's really significant. Sorry. I just had

1806
01:33:19,200 --> 01:33:22,100
to put that in there. I think it's

1807
01:33:23,300 --> 01:33:26,500
yes, that is actually a great ending I

1808
01:33:26,500 --> 01:33:26,800
think.

1809
01:33:27,400 --> 01:33:30,400
so I would like to thank everyone

1810
01:33:30,400 --> 01:33:34,000
who joined this panel obviously

1811
01:33:33,300 --> 01:33:36,700
and everyone who

1812
01:33:38,400 --> 01:33:40,500
here you really joined this panel and

1813
01:33:41,900 --> 01:33:45,500
Still is still here, and we

1814
01:33:45,500 --> 01:33:48,500
will have a recording and I'm going to share it

1815
01:33:48,500 --> 01:33:51,400
with the organizers and I assume they

1816
01:33:51,400 --> 01:33:52,500
will put it up somewhere.

1817
01:33:56,300 --> 01:33:59,300
Um, yeah. So then with this we are at

1818
01:33:59,300 --> 01:34:00,300
the end of the session.

1819
01:34:01,100 --> 01:34:05,300
We are wishing you a nice day or evening or light

1820
01:34:04,300 --> 01:34:07,400
Wherever You

1821
01:34:07,400 --> 01:34:07,600
Are.

1822
01:34:08,500 --> 01:34:09,700
And thanks a lot.

1823
01:34:12,400 --> 01:34:12,400
Thank you.

1824
01:34:14,600 --> 01:34:16,200
Thanks, so bring us together Claudia.

1825
01:34:17,200 --> 01:34:21,100
Thanks to all of you. Really. I was

1826
01:34:20,100 --> 01:34:23,100
brilliant. I think great. Thank you.